# The Morality of Stripping Elves **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 12, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087 "2010-08-12T21:47:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/41 "2010-08-13T16:59:31Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 1. Again, this is a discussion of the morality. This is GD not CS. Begbert has suggested that they had alternatives, but so far all he’s suggested is that instead of stripping women, they find ones who have their runes in obvious places – which is infeasible since they need all of the women with runes, not just the ones with the runes on their face – and that they only have the female characters examine the women – which doesn’t really say why that matters. Um, **no**. I have suggested: 1. That after entering the town and cornering the elf in question, the hunters calmly explain that the elves have two choices: a) go quietly into this tent, disrobe, and let the three women of the party do a calm and clinical examination, or b) have the big muscular guy here rip your clothes to shreds in front of all and sundry while yelling “I’m sorry!”. The elves may be “amazingly private” and not want to disrobe at all, but that same inclination towards privacy should impell them to allow the hunters to take the more moral course. Instead, in the anime at least, they _never_ stopped to discuss the matter. Sure, they were in a hurry (though often for no obviously pressing reason), but _still_. 1. Have the elves distribute information that it would be a very very good idea for people to _submit_ themselves to such an examination, and/or send out their own teams to conduct similarly non-optional examinations themselves. Besides the fact that the elves could compose their teams _entirely_ of women, they could send out more teams at once and get it done with a lot faster. Instead, in the anime at least, very few of the elven population _even knew why the hunters were stripping the elves_. As far as they knew, the hunters were merely random psychotic serial elf-assaulters. It wasn’t even “we know why you’re doing it and don’t think that justifies it”; it was “eek! The elf-strippers are here! Run/attack/panic!” Noting that at least some of the elven authorities knew about the situation the entire time, their failure to disseminate this information was downright criminal. And finally I suggested 3): if they _had_ to go around stripping elves wantonly without telling anyone why or asking for (coerced) consent first, couldn’t they at least have the women doing it? In the anime the women apparently did it a _few_ times, generally off-camera, but as a general rule it was the big muscular man charging in and generating panning still-frames of panicked elves modestly covering themselves surrounded by a cloud of shreds of torn clothing. For a point of fact I never actually suggested that they refrain from searching anybody who didn’t have their marks plainly visible; I merely pointed out that when the elves finally _did_ organize their own searching campaign (in the anime), they apparently had a relatively easy job identifying the marked women when they found them. Not all the marked elves were similarly obvious. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Since the question seems to have been missed: > > **Let’s say that you have been kidnapped by a psychopathic murderer. You use a magic spell to call some random, person – not a police officer or anyone else obliged to try and save you – from the opposite side of the planet, and he risks life and limb to set you free. How in debt are you to get him back home?** You’re in a lot of debt - but the rest of your elven bretheren, less so. However I’m not entirely sure I’m getting the context of the question - the anime starts pretty darned _en medias res_ - the reason for the hunters’ arrival in the universe is entirely not the point and gets barely any mention at all. So there could easily be something I’m missing - in the manga, does the _entire female elf population_ participate in the process of teleporting the misplaced hunters from Japan? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/42 "2010-08-13T17:01:59Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Aren’t there any male Elven that need to be stripped? Where do I volunteer? Not that I recall, in the anime at least; I vaguely recall there being some magical rationale for it. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/43 "2010-08-13T17:16:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And finally I suggested 3): if they _had_ to go around stripping elves wantonly without telling anyone why or asking for (coerced) consent first, couldn’t they at least have the women doing it? In the anime the women apparently did it a _few_ times, generally off-camera, but as a general rule it was the big muscular man charging in and generating panning still-frames of panicked elves modestly covering themselves surrounded by a cloud of shreds of torn clothing. That’s to do with the relative abilities of the members of the party. (1) Celcia’s main skill was in casting spells, and she wasn’t very good at that, since she caused the problem in the first place. (2) Ritsuko is good at handling weapons and driving the tank – skills not very useful when it comes to disrobing elves. (3) Airi was an actress, and could talk anybody into anything. Given time, she probably could have talked the clothes of the elves, but that might not have been so funny. (4) Junpei was the strongman, and good at hand-to-hand combat: skills very useful when you want to remove clothes from an unwilling elf. He was also the most impatient of the team, so he was likely to jump in first without thinking too much. But the whole thing was played for comedy, and (as in many comedies) you aren’t supposed to think too deeply about the morality of it. **King Lear** it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/44 "2010-08-13T17:34:59Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Morally, as saviors of the planet, do they have the right to strip any Elven woman they come across? Not pertinent. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Does it help that they perform further heroic acts as they go along searching the planet? Also not pertinent. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And does it help that out of their group of 4, 3 are women? Also not pertinent. Either it’s OK to forcibly strip an elf, or it isn’t. None of the above reasons changes the morality of it it any way. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/45 "2010-08-13T17:49:06Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > And finally I suggested 3): if they _had_ to go around stripping elves wantonly without telling anyone why or asking for (coerced) consent first, couldn’t they at least have the women doing it? In the anime the women apparently did it a _few_ times, generally off-camera, but as a general rule it was the big muscular man charging in and generating panning still-frames of panicked elves modestly covering themselves surrounded by a cloud of shreds of torn clothing. > > That’s to do with the relative abilities of the members of the party. > (1) Celcia’s main skill was in casting spells, and she wasn’t very good at that, since she caused the problem in the first place. > (2) Ritsuko is good at handling weapons and driving the tank – skills not very useful when it comes to disrobing elves. > (3) Airi was an actress, and could talk anybody into anything. Given time, she probably could have talked the clothes of the elves, but that might not have been so funny. > (4) Junpei was the strongman, and good at hand-to-hand combat: skills very useful when you want to remove clothes from an unwilling elf. He was also the most impatient of the team, so he was likely to jump in first without thinking too much. Well right, but we’re talking about theoretical alternate options where these folks were (more) concerned about the morality and lacked the gigantic mental blind spots that prevented them from thinking of the somewhat obvious alternate approaches. In these cases Junpei would be presumed to have more restraint. (And maybe more intelligence, if necessary.) 1. Celcia was actually not bad at magic at all - when she wasn’t interrupting her own spells to yell at Junpei. (Assuming the mess-up didn’t happen differently in the manga.) 2. Two words: stun gas. 3. She actually _did_ talk the clothes off of groups of elves in one episode - one of the few where anybody but Junpei was doing the dirty work. (Something in the back of my mind that Ritsuko was doing active stripping in that episode too, but I can’t recall any details. Time to re-watch!) Regardless, see 4: 4. Junpei could have klonked the elves on the head and handed them off into the tent for the actual stripping. If we’re committed to the hunters still doing it forcibly rather than with threat-based coersion of compliance. > [@Giles](#): > > But the whole thing was played for comedy, and (as in many comedies) you aren’t supposed to think too deeply about the morality of it. **King Lear** it’s not. Did King Lear have naked elves? No? _Lame._ ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/46 "2010-08-13T17:51:34Z")
What if there were a time bomb that was going to destroy the galaxy and could only be defused by someone giving a long line of Japanese schoolgirls “the shocker” while they giggle into their hands and squeak like hamsters, and because of a wizard’s curse I was the only human left who still had pinky fingers, and although the schoolgirls of course wouldn’t mind (because of my aphrodisiac mind-control abilities) defusing the bomb would release a momentary burst of antimatter that would destroy the colony of ultraminiaturized Smurfs living inside a stainless steel vibrating egg lodged in my ass? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/47 "2010-08-13T18:08:17Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > What if there were a time bomb that was going to destroy the galaxy and could only be defused by someone giving a long line of Japanese schoolgirls “the shocker” while they giggle into their hands and squeak like hamsters, and because of a wizard’s curse I was the only human left who still had pinky fingers, and although the schoolgirls of course wouldn’t mind (because of my aphrodisiac mind-control abilities) defusing the bomb would release a momentary burst of antimatter that would destroy the colony of ultraminiaturized Smurfs living inside a stainless steel vibrating egg lodged in my ass? The Smurfs are trespassing on your body and thus killable via the standard pro-choice argument, and the Japanese schoolgirls are all submitting voluntarily, so _that’s_ not a moral problem. The use of your aphrodesiac mind control abilities is dodgy, and certainly morally inferior to them submitting without coersion, but arguably the fact you are saving their lives from immenent galactic destruction makes the act necessary, the same way it’s justified for doctors to disrobe patients for surgery because it’s necessary. You don’t happen to have a woman in your group that could administer the shockers instead, do you? Any you _do_ realize that the OP didn’t just make up this absurd scenario to twit with you, right? It’s a published comic book and animated series in japan. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/48 "2010-08-13T18:11:18Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Any you _do_ realize that the OP didn’t just make up this absurd scenario to twit with you, right? It’s a published comic book and animated series in japan. I suggest for a future thread an examination of moral issues in FLCL. Of course, before we do that, we have to work out exactly what goes on in that anime series. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/49 "2010-08-13T18:12:31Z")
I’m confused as to why anyone would want to leave the fantasy world. Evil Wizards to fight, elf babes to chase, phat lewts to be had. Beats the hell out of anything Earth has to offer. That noted, no, it is not ok to forcibly strip the elves. You can explain the situation and request cooperation, which really oughta solve the problem. If they don’t cooperate, then you’re pretty much stuck there, unless you’re willing to become the Darkness you fought against. I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/50 "2010-08-13T18:14:14Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I suggest for a future thread an examination of moral issues in FLCL. Of course, before we do that, we have to work out exactly what goes on in that anime series. Good luck with that. I have the series, have watched it three times, and would be absolutely no help in figuring it out. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/51 "2010-08-13T18:15:22Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’m confused as to why anyone would want to leave the fantasy world. Evil Wizards to fight, elf babes to chase, phat lewts to be had. Beats the hell out of anything Earth has to offer. They _really_ miss Japan. A lot. Okay, maybe this is fleshed out more in the comic. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/52 "2010-08-13T18:17:23Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@Sage Rat](#): > > > > **Let’s say that you have been kidnapped by a psychopathic murderer. You use a magic spell to call some random, person – not a police officer or anyone else obliged to try and save you – from the opposite side of the planet, and he risks life and limb to set you free. How in debt are you to get him back home?** > > You’re in a lot of debt - but the rest of your elven bretheren, less so. > > However I’m not entirely sure I’m getting the context of the question - the anime starts pretty darned _en medias res_ - the reason for the hunters’ arrival in the universe is entirely not the point and gets barely any mention at all. So there could easily be something I’m missing - in the manga, does the _entire female elf population_ participate in the process of teleporting the misplaced hunters from Japan? To some extent. Celcia is the nominal “Chief of the Common Elves”. It would be like Barack Obama summoning a band of warriors to save the US. It was something officially undertaken for the Elven race by its leaders. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/53 "2010-08-13T18:23:53Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > You’re in a lot of debt - but the rest of your elven bretheren, less so. > > > > However I’m not entirely sure I’m getting the context of the question - the anime starts pretty darned _en medias res_ - the reason for the hunters’ arrival in the universe is entirely not the point and gets barely any mention at all. So there could easily be something I’m missing - in the manga, does the _entire female elf population_ participate in the process of teleporting the misplaced hunters from Japan? > > To some extent. Celcia is the nominal “Chief of the Common Elves”. It would be like Barack Obama summoning a band of warriors to save the US. It was something officially undertaken for the Elven race by its leaders. (That matches the anime. Yay for staying true to the source material!) Okay, so Barack Obama summons a band of elven warriors to save the US. Is it then morally okay for the warriors to run rampant stripping every human woman in the nation? Keeping in mind that the only reason _any_ of this is necessary is because Barack Obama personally and pretty much singlehandedly whiffed the return spell and caused the situation requiring the stripping to occur? I can see an argument for the warriors being fully morally justified in beating the living crap out of Obama, repeatedly - but not for the stripping being moral. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/54 "2010-08-13T18:33:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I can see an argument for the warriors being fully morally justified in beating the living crap out of Obama, repeatedly - but not for the stripping being moral. But beating up Obama (or Celcia), while it may be satisfying, is not going to return you to your native country. Stripping people who are carrying fragments of the spell will get you back home. It’s tough on the people being stripped, since it’s not their fault that spell fragments landed on them, but it does them no lasting harm. I guess I’m arguing for a utilitarian morality, where you balance the good and bad effects of your actions. Beating up someone in this situation has no good effects; stripping someone has more good than bad effects. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/55 "2010-08-13T18:38:43Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > I can see an argument for the warriors being fully morally justified in beating the living crap out of Obama, repeatedly - but not for the stripping being moral. > > But beating up Obama (or Celcia), while it may be satisfying, is not going to return you to your native country. Stripping people who are carrying fragments of the spell will get you back home. It’s tough on the people being stripped, since it’s not their fault that spell fragments landed on them, but it does them no lasting harm. > > I guess I’m arguing for a utilitarian morality, where you balance the good and bad effects of your actions. Beating up someone in this situation has no good effects; stripping someone has more good than bad effects. You’re forgetting economies of scale here - in season 1 I believe that there were 7 spell fragments (only five of which they found by stripping), and dozens-if-not hundreds of stripped elves. (Actually, I belive that ‘hundreds’ is explicitly asserted in the series; it may be _thousands_.) So even _optimally_ speaking, that’s a pretty bad ROI. Also it was pretty clear that some of the stripped elves felt that real harm had been done to them or their reputations by being stripped, in public, against their will. (Pretty sensitive, I know.) Whereas, if they _keep_ beating Celcia up continuously thereafter (and after she got turned into a dog she seemed to be able to bounce back from damage pretty well), then that would be a continuing and lasting benefit to the Hunters. _And_ morally justified by the usual standards of morality. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/56 "2010-08-13T18:38:58Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I guess I’m arguing for a utilitarian morality, where you balance the good and bad effects of your actions. Beating up someone in this situation has no good effects; stripping someone has more good than bad effects. I don’t see it that way. The “heroes” may want to get home very badly, but that does not give them a moral justification to violate the rights of others by force. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/57 "2010-08-13T18:47:41Z")
Let’s also remember that the spell merely sought to bring some force to the fantasy planet of sufficient strength to save them from someone who could conquer the whole planet. That is to say, Those Who Hunt Elves are a group that is specifically intended to be a force of such strength as to be able to rule the world if they wished. When Celcia cast the spell, she had no guarantee nor reason to believe that the people she summoned would help, let alone that they would do so for free, let alone that they wouldn’t just up and conquer the planet themselves. In terms of a morality tale, that’s a massively risky choice to make and one where you should expect some sort of repercussions. In that sense, the fantasy planet has been let off very easy. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/58 "2010-08-13T19:57:51Z")
Is it moral for the elves to refuse to cooperate, preventing these people from ever returning home, just to avoid a little embarrassment? I’m not saying it justifies violating their rights even if they are behaving immorally. But I think it’s at least worth noting that the humans aren’t the only ones in the wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/59 "2010-08-13T20:24:47Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Is it moral for the elves to refuse to cooperate, preventing these people from ever returning home, just to avoid a little embarrassment? > > I’m not saying it justifies violating their rights even if they are behaving immorally. But I think it’s at least worth noting that the humans aren’t the only ones in the wrong here. It would be immoral for an elf who 1) had a spell part mark, and 2) knew that the mark was required for the hunters to return home, to refuse to calmly submit themselves to Celcia to have the spell part removed in private. Of course, most elves didn’t have spell parts, a couple of them that did didn’t _know_ they had a mark (one was under an eyepatch that the elf never removed, for example), and most importantly, _the elves didn’t know why the Hunters were stripping elves in the first place_. In cases where elves that had marks were found, and it was explained what they were, the elves then submitted themselves happily to the spell to remove them. They don’t _like_ the marks, remember. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087/60 "2010-08-13T22:01:00Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > But, regardless that the summoner is the one who actively summoned them, everyone on the planet is certainly in debt. No, they’re not. Only if they had requested being saved and concluded with an offer of getting their saviours back, are they in debt. It may be the \*nice \*or \*polite \*thing to do to suffer whatever indignities necessary to return them, but it is not a moral obligation on the entire population or even just the Elven female subset thereof, IMO. Or, on preview, what \*\*Grumman \*\*said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-stripping-elves/550087.md?page=4)