The more I think about Captain America Civil War...

Cafe Society
21

+1

The scene @ Peggy’s funeral also summed it up - you bend where you can, but when you can’t - you simply don’t.

[QUOTE=Sharon Carter]
Margaret Carter was known to most as the founder of S.H.I.E.L.D. But I just know her as Aunt Peggy. She had a photograph in her office: Aunt Peggy standing next to JFK. As a kid that was pretty cool. But it was a lot to live up to, which is why I never told anyone we were related. I asked her once how she managed to master diplomacy and espionage at a time when no one wanted to see a woman succeed at either. And she said, “Compromise where you can. Where you can’t, don’t. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right. Even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye, and say, ‘No, you move’.”
[/QUOTE]

This was Steve’s ‘don’t’ moment.

22

Indeed - Tony couldn’t even make it to the end of the movie without breaking the Accords - his trip to the Siberian base was out of the 24 hour period he originally asked for, and was clearly not authorized by Thunderbolt Ross.

23

I don’t think the Accords were the real reason for the fight. If I remember correctly, Capt. was willing to bend on them until the explosion happened and Bucky became wanted.

Bucky was the heart of the matter which, I think, made it a lot more muddled. I found myself understanding Stark’s point of view quite a bit.

24

I’m of the opposite view - the situation with Bucky highlighted the issues Steve had with the accords: substituting the judgment of others for that of folks on the front lines, and a slow-moving bureaucratic process for going into action.

The fact that Bucky was his friend muddled the situation for others, especially Tony - rather than listen to Cap’s suspicions about the frame-up, everyone dismissed them as sentiment.

To me, the big issue not addressed was expecting the Accords to work at all. What committee is going to react quickly to the news that a Norse god in league with aliens plans to take over the planet, or that an evil artificial intelligence plans to wipe out humanity by dropping an Eastern European city from orbit? One of the more interesting themes in **Alias Jessica Jones **was how difficult it was getting anyone in an official capacity to even believe in Killgrave’s abilities. What the Avengers deal with is that sort of thing cubed.

25

In the movies, yes. It seems like Kevin Feige or anyone else at Marvel had Civil War in mind from nearly the start since they built up to it. Tony and Cap nearly fought in the first Avengers (over whether Tony was just out for himself or was something more) and did fight briefly in Age of Ultron (over Tony’s insistence that he knew the best course of action and everyone else should just trust him).

26

I would also point out that many characters in the MCU feel guilt for things they’re not entirely responsible for, or where there was no good solution, in addition to the things they actually have screwed up. This is so common that something like half the Avengers have issues with it, and how they deal with those emotions is a major running theme of their respective stories. (And yet, this is often considered the light-hearted superhero franchise compared to DC.)

Iron Man has a real guilt complex over Ultron, even though he actually wasn’t responsible for it. He never intended to create Ultron, at least not at that time or in that way. After Wanda messed with his mind - and we see how that affected everyone else - he was still only investigating the Mind stone, which activated Ultron more or less on its own. He’s neither the first nor the last to be caught off-guard by an Infinity stone, moreso because the Avengers still don’t seem to know what they have their, possibly excepting Thor. This doesn’t help him escape that feeling, though, and Stark is trying to step forward and actually be mature for once. Interestingly, the overall Marvel series seems to imply (to me, anyway), that his father followed a similar path. Young Howard Stark was brash, idealistic, excitable, and constantly rushing about doing his own thing. But we that later in life, he was very serious and emotionally reserved, with a strong sense of duty partly stemming from his failure to prevent problems.

Or here’s another one: In Civil War, Wanda has a problem with how her actions destroyed many innocent lives during Crossbones’ attack. The fact that it simply was a bad situation, and possibly nobody could have prevented some casualties, simply isn’t going to make her feel any better or fix the problem. In part, we see that she wants to prove that she’s on the right side, no matter the personal cost.

I’m not saying this is the only way to look at characters, but it’s such an important theme that you can look at, and understand, almost every hero in that light. Cap? He survived everything, even death, and he isn’t going to fail to save Bucky a third time. Let’s not even start with Black Widow, whose uncomfortable history just drips with… red. Or even some of the villains. Loki and Zemo, for example, are characters driven by a deep sense of inner shame they can’t escape.

27

Steve was a New Deal Democrat, but he was also a staunch a anti-fascist. I don’t think he’d necessarily object to the avengers being regulated, but the Sokovia Accords were a maybe a little too close to control. If the Avengers were regulated by an open. Democratic process, he’d likely sign on, but he was being offered the opportunity to be ordered around by shadowy bureaucrats, and that didn’t sit right.

Also, thanks for finding that s American Captain comics. It’s one of my favorites, and when I saw the artists site was down, I’d thought they were lost for good.

28

The other problem with the Accords is that they can’t work. Any superhero who’s cooperating with them is one who doesn’t need them, and against any superhero who does need them, they can’t be enforced. It’s like if every nation in the world except the US and USSR tried to pass a strategic arms reduction treaty.

29

Chronos’ point is related to my main problem with Civil War - super heroes and real world solution scenarios don’t mix well.

Usually, modern day solutions are, in principal, based upon the idea that we are all equal. Super heroes are not our equals. And the more super they are, the less any solution makes sense that acts as if they were.

Thor is an advanced alien, The Hulk is a force of nature, Vision is an AI “assisted by” the power of something beyond human grasp, and they are all such heavy hitters (as far as a non-comic reader but movie viewer understands it) that nothing human should be able to do more than inconvenience them for a time. Anyone who can do more, is also beyond human control.

They all can sign as many treaties with human agencies as the later ones can produce - in the end, they cannot be enforced by the ones who needed those safety guards in the first place.*
Of course, that’s one of the reasons why I rarely enjoy super hero stories: politically, they are either painfully naive or demeaning.

  • Winter Soldier worked, imo, because the super heroes in action there were
    mostly close enough to human level to make the more realistic looking threat somewhat plausible - you just had to ignore that the other ones do exist.
    Which turns the conflict in Civil War moot. The world of the Marvel universe seems to be - from my pov - a truly aristocratic one [though I am almost tempted to call it fascist in nature]; democratic solutions won’t work.
30

Btw, the powers Scarlet Witch showed, were pretty impressive (though strangely uneven … depending on plot requirement, I guess). Can someone knowledgable explain to me, how they managed to imprison her?

31

Wasn’t she in a straitjacket at the end? If she can’t do those creepy gestures where it looks like her hands are contortionists taking belly-dancing lessons, she presumably can’t work her magic.

32

Damn, sorry for the triple post, but I just realized that I mangled the paragraphs at the end in my first post; here is the correct order:

They all can sign as many treaties with human agencies as the later ones can produce - in the end, they cannot be enforced by the ones who needed those safety guards in the first place.*

Which turns the conflict in Civil War moot. The world of the Marvel universe seems to be - from my pov - a truly aristocratic one [though I am almost tempted to call it fascist in nature]; democratic solutions won’t work.

Of course, that’s one of the reasons why I rarely enjoy super hero stories: politically, they are either painfully naive or demeaning.

  • Winter Soldier worked, imo, because the super heroes in action there were mostly close enough to human level to make the more realistic looking threat somewhat plausible - you just had to ignore that the other ones do exist.

Added: Thanks, The Other Waldo Pepper, I didn’t know this was her Achilles’ heel.

33

She also had some kind of collar with lights on it around her neck. Plus, she was emotionally devastated from almost killing Rhodes, so may have not been trying to escape.

34

Mind you, I’m not sure about her Achilles’ heel – but the alternative is that she does all that showy gesturing for no good reason; and that they straitjacketed her, but not the bigger stronger guys, for no good reason. Which is, admittedly, hilarious.

35

Thanks, guys. Even after watching two movies with her, I still have no idea what she can do and what not … well, this is true for most of the other super heroes as well.

36

I wonder if the collar was there to interfere with her powers in some way, or was an old fashioned Running Man-esque explosive collar so they could puree her head if she tried anything.

37

There are some more things that bothered me in Civil Wars …

  • I understand that Captain America doesn’t trust any political institution with the power to control the Avengers’ actions.

But if he insists on self-government, shouldn’t he be willing to accept responsibility for their actions?

For example, both sides cause billions of Euros of damage during their fight at the European airport*; and it’s beyond suspension of disbelief that they didn’t injure or even kill bystanders during their “civil war”. Shouldn’t he accept that they need to pay in some adequate way for the damages they have caused?

Doesn’t he proclaim by action that they are above not just any law but also any responsibility when mere humans are the victims? [The prison break seems to prove this beyond doubt.]

  • Thanks to Jarvis (?), Tony finds out about the possible innocence of Bucky and the real culprit independently and quickly enough to play a role in the finale. Doesn’t this undermine the necessity of Captain America’s actions? It looks to me as if this shows that the “rebels” act hastily and are wrong to distrust everyone else to scrutinize the facts carefully.
  • Yes, I do realize that this is a fantasy movie. But the writers chose to put fantasy figures into an otherwise realistically painted world.
38

I feel like this is not a bug but a feature. Of course they’re going to run afoul of the Accords and of course it will require their oversight authority to send in the ninjas. This allows us to get a stylish reminder of each Avenger’s powers as they chuck balaclava-clad dudes through windows and whatnot. We’ve had a bunch of villains who have tried duplicating their powers and they all failed. We’ve had an alien invasion and that failed. We’ve had multiple attempts at tearing the team apart from within and they have all failed. That last one should be the most telling to anyone who is going to try to oversee them - even the Avengers can’t defeat the Avengers!