# The more intelligent an animal is, the more wrong is it to eat it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194 "2011-04-29T18:49:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/21 "2011-04-30T00:01:20Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’d rather have a cow than a rat, so there’s that. No problem. Rats are surely smarter than cows. In fact, IME the average carrot is smarter than the average cow. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/22 "2011-04-30T00:28:35Z")
As pigs prove, intelligence is \*fucking delicious. \* I like dolphins though, so I’d prefer we don’t eat them. You can pry my bacon out of my cold dead hangs though. ---
**Author:** ![just\_some\_guy5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@just\_some\_guy5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_some_guy5)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/23 "2011-04-30T03:48:30Z")
I think intelligence has far less to do with it than an animal’s “closeness” to humans. Most would find grilling up a puppy, kitten or even gerbil utterly atrocious - but will happily enjoy bacon and calamari. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/24 "2011-04-30T05:14:28Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > No problem. Rats are surely smarter than cows. In fact, IME the average carrot is smarter than the average cow. My family has had 5 pet rats so far, and I can speak from experience that they are ridiculously smart and clever. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/25 "2011-04-30T06:01:18Z")
Well, by this logic, couldn’t we eat people who are severely mentally disabled? Would an alien race with superior intelligence be justified in eating the human race, because our capacity for suffering was insignificant in comparison to theirs? Is that really how we want to assign value to living things? I feel like eating animals is one of those things that doesn’t exist within the realm of ethics and logic. Ethically I cannot justify it. I could survive just fine on a vegetarian diet. Essentially I’m saying, ‘‘This suffering is justified because I prefer the taste of this lesser being’s flesh.’’ That argument would never fly in any other context. I can really only justify it biologically. I’ve tried to be vegetarian four times and lasted less than a week each time. Animals eat each other and we’re animals; ergo, we eat other animals. And I swear there’s some days my system is all out of whack when I go too long without a burger. I’m mostly concerned with just being humane about it. Whether or not animals are intelligent, they clearly are capable of suffering in many cases, and the horrific quality of life for many factory farm animals is just disgusting beyond words. I really find my own behavior as a consumer to be quite lacking here. We’ve got no excuse for it. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/26 "2011-04-30T06:15:21Z")
I think the main idea is that animals don’t really have a conception of their own mortality. Death isn’t much of a problem for any individual person - it’s the fear of death that creates the problems. I think that scientific studies have shown that animals raised for their meat don’t realize that they are going to eventually be killed in an untimely fashion, nor do deer roaming in the woods that might be shot at any time, or fish swimming in the sea. They live life moment-to-moment, and we humans figure that they’re going to die anyway, so whether it’s at the end of a long life or just when the animal is the right size to eat makes little difference. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/27 "2011-04-30T08:03:59Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If hungry enough I would eat a dolphin, a dog, or a chimp. If hungry enough I would eat you. Sorry… Dorothy from _the Golden Girls_: Rose make Dorothy a Scandinavian food dish and Dorothy replies: > [@](#): > > Rose, if the Donner Party had this with them, they STILL would’ve eaten each other I think it’s more the cuteness factor than the intelligence thing. I had mice in my flat about a year ago. And really it was so hard to kill the first one or two because they were so cute. But after that, I was simply stomping on the critters with my foot. One mouse is CUTE, two or more are vermin that need to be KILLED. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/28 "2011-04-30T08:57:35Z")
Dolphins were commonly being portrayed as possibly being as intelligent as people a while back (more by new agey types than by science) so are unusual examples. Pigs arent commonly known to be intelligent, and if anything people tend to think of them as dumb. So perception is a part of peoples metrics in all of this I think, ie its the level of anthopomorphising that makes something less desirable to eat, not cuteness alone, eg lamb cutlets. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/29 "2011-04-30T10:48:18Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I feel like eating animals is one of those things that doesn’t exist within the realm of ethics and logic. Ethically I cannot justify it. I could survive just fine on a vegetarian diet. Essentially I’m saying, ‘‘This suffering is justified because I prefer the taste of this lesser being’s flesh.’’ That argument would never fly in any other context. I can really only justify it biologically. I’ve tried to be vegetarian four times and lasted less than a week each time. Agreed. I like to think of myself as a fairly moral and rational person, but if I have a blindspot it’s eating meat. If god were to call me on it, I’d have absolutely no defence at all (because I recognize that “I like meat” and “Animals kill” don’t work). > [@](#): > > Whether or not animals are intelligent, they clearly are capable of suffering in many cases, and the horrific quality of life for many factory farm animals is just disgusting beyond words. I once went on a free-range only diet, and lasted a good six months. It basically meant that I could only eat meat I’d bought myself, as in most other situations it’s not possible to know where the meat was sourced. The whole thing imploded though when I realized that many things I buy contain meat products (e.g. gelatin) and how were those sourced? etc. ---
**Author:** ![SyuRi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SyuRi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SyuRi)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/30 "2011-04-30T12:40:19Z")
So from what i’ve understood most people here tend to think it’s more related to closeness than intelligence. So in a sentence it would mean: as long as i’m not attached to that animal, it’s ok to eat it. So what’s stopping you from eating a healthy stranger other than what others would think and law? Maybe they would be tasty. If it’s too gruesome, or you invoke the “because we’re the same species and canibalism is wrong” or “because it’s just gross eating a human” rebutals, imagine there were other animals, not human, for instance in the form of pigs, but as intelligent in every way as us. Would it also be ok to eat them then? ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/31 "2011-05-01T18:58:40Z")
It’s not about ethics or morality. Eating people is taboo. Eating animals is not taboo. It’s just a widespread convention. ---
**Author:** ![Ocardowin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@Ocardowin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocardowin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/32 "2011-05-01T19:17:07Z")
It’s really just about personal morality. I could never bring myself to eat a dolphin or support dolphin slaughter after learning how intelligent they are. They speak to one another, teach one another (there was an example, if I’m remembering right, where a trainer told a dolphin to make up its own trick, and the dolphin swam to another dolphin, clicked a bunch of times, and they both did the same trick synchronized – a trick that no one had seen before), use tools, have a culture, pass the mirror test, etc. > [@](#): > > “For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons.” > [@](#): > > Using a mind probe set in the brain, which when stimulated with an electrical current gave the dolphin a rewarding sensation, Dr. Lilly set up a switch where Dolphin #6 could reward himself by pushing a lever. “While I was assembling it, I noticed that the dolphin was closely watching what I was doing. Almost before I could finish assembling and placing the rods necessary to push the switch (which was out of the water above the animal), the dolphin started pushing on the rod. By the time the switch was connected to the rest of the apparatus he had learned the proper way to push it.” > > There was no random or apparent accidental contacts before the dolphin learned how. The same thing happened with three different dolphins. They seemed to anticipate the purpose of the switch. Probably from seeing him push it and connecting the push to the reward. Dr. Lilly had used this same technique on monkeys and made the statement that it usually took a chimp about 100 random tries before he learned to push the button, and then a few more to learn how to push the button. They perform experiments on humans: > [@](#): > > Dr. Lilly was attempting to make Dolphin #8 whistle a burst of a given pitch, duration and intensity in order to obtain a reward. The dolphin quickly caught on. Every time he whistled his blowhole would move and a whistle would be emitted. Then Dr. Lilly noticed that the dolphin had added a new rule to the game. He was raising the pitch of each subsequent whistle. Suddenly, the blowhole twitched, but no sound. He had passed our hearing range. No sound-- no reward. Dolphin #8 emitted two more supersonic twitches and the third was hearable. From that time on he did not go out of Dr. Lilly’s acoustic range. The Dolphin had determined what his hearing range was and stayed within it. So on, and so forth. I know this digresses from the ultimate question, but everyone should learn just how intelligent these creatures are. To answer the question: really, it comes down to your own personal morality. Why is eating a “dumb” creature more acceptable? Probably a myriad of factors, the largest of which is empathy. It’s easier to empathize with something on or close to your level; something to which you can relate (you see a similar occurrence with rich/poor people). > [@](#): > > Dolphins were commonly being portrayed as possibly being as intelligent as people a while back (more by new agey types than by science) so are unusual examples. Has this been disproved? Humans are always going to come out as more intelligent on tests designed by humans to compare human and animal intelligence. How many dolphins have learned human language? How many humans have learned dolphin language? I’m not endorsing this as being true, but the possibility exists. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/33 "2011-05-01T19:55:30Z")
I want to point out that any ethical problem isn’t “really” with _eating_ animals, it’s with _killing_ them. Once they’re dead, there really isn’t an ethical problem. I’m going to ignore the possibility of eating parts while keeping the animal alive - for now. > [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Well, by this logic, couldn’t we eat people who are severely mentally disabled? The main “objective” reason not to _eat_ humans is because that’s an excellent way of spreading disease. AFAIK, generally speaking, it’s safer to eat animals that are less closely related to you. > [@](#): > > Would an alien race with superior intelligence be justified in eating the human race, because our capacity for suffering was insignificant in comparison to theirs? Is that really how we want to assign value to living things? I’m sure we wouldn’t serve ourselves up. But there is another way of looking at this issue: we could put a barrier at some level of consciousness / intelligence above which it wouldn’t be ethical to kill that entity for food. Most people would put humans at some point above the threshold. > [@](#): > > I feel like eating animals is one of those things that doesn’t exist within the realm of ethics and logic. Ethically I cannot justify it. I could survive just fine on a vegetarian diet. Essentially I’m saying, ‘‘This suffering is justified because I prefer the taste of this lesser being’s flesh.’’ That argument would never fly in any other context. I can really only justify it biologically. I’ve tried to be vegetarian four times and lasted less than a week each time. Animals eat each other and we’re animals; ergo, we eat other animals. And I swear there’s some days my system is all out of whack when I go too long without a burger. But suffering is something we can think about. How much does a chicken suffer if we provide it with a decent amount of space & food, make sure it lives a healthy life and then kill it swiftly? Is it possible - for a chicken - to have a “good” life in that scenario? What about a shrimp? If we compare the life of a wild shrimp to one bread in captivity for food, which has more suffering? Is that question even relevant? I’m not sure that it is, but a “natural” life and death for many wild animals might be worse than what we do some of our captive food animals - let alone hunted animals. > [@](#): > > I’m mostly concerned with just being humane about it. Whether or not animals are intelligent, they clearly are capable of suffering in many cases, and the horrific quality of life for many factory farm animals is just disgusting beyond words. I really find my own behavior as a consumer to be quite lacking here. We’ve got no excuse for it. Agreed with all of that. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/34 "2011-05-04T14:44:39Z")
It’s mostly habit. People who are raised eating a different diet usually continue to eat that diet just like we do. A lot of the things we do we do mostly from habit. That said, there’s no doubt that animals suffer, and that most people (willfully or not) tend to overlook or forget any evidence that might make them change their eating habits. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/35 "2011-05-04T15:20:26Z")
Save the planet and advance mankind. Save the dolphins and eat the stupid people instead. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/36 "2011-05-04T15:55:42Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Pigs are considered to be pretty intelligent, yet I really like bacon and sausage, so, I don’t think intelligence or the lack of it makes it ‘wrong’. > > -XT I decline to eat pork precisely because I decided pigs were too likely to be sapient for me to be comfortable eating. I stopped eating beef for health reasons, so it’s not a live issue for me, but if I had occasion to investigate the issue I might rule it out for the same reason. Currently I only eat dinosaur meat, by which of course I mean turkey and chicken. While I’m confident that both of those are idiots, I’m not completely easy about it. My continuing to eat them is quite possibly a moral failing on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/37 "2011-05-04T20:19:24Z")
Quoth **dbx820** : > [@](#): > > However, I beleive that the convergance of unsustainability of producing meat animals (i.e. higher cost) coupled with burgeoning animal rights will considerably shrink the market for meat in the next 100 years to the luxury that it should be. For large portions of the Earth’s surface, the only way to produce human-usable food is via meat. There’s nothing that grows sustainably in such places that humans can eat, but livestock can eat the grass and scrub that does grow sustainably there, and then we can eat the livestock. We probably do eat more meat than the sustainable optimum, but it’s never going away entirely, even as a subsistence food. ---
**Author:** ![Monaco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Monaco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monaco)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/38 "2013-07-18T09:39:21Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Pigs are considered to be pretty intelligent, yet I really like bacon and sausage, so, I don’t think intelligence or the lack of it makes it ‘wrong’. > > -XT Well… It’s not the pig’s lack of intellect that’s in question, it’s yours. What events are required to transpire for human beings to make moral conscious decisions? How will you escape this paradox when it’s too uncomfortable to ask the man in the mirror the question behind the question: That question is “why?”. ``` WHY? ``` Why exactly do you eat pork? Because it tastes good, right? Yes, but that isn’t the only reason. What if I told you cats taste good? What’s stopping you from eating Garfield? What if I told you that the taste of human flesh is better than ice cream on a hot summer day, would you run out and buy a pound of the finest French sartorius money can buy? Obviously something is preventing you from doing both of those while giving you the green light to eat pigs, cows and chicken. What does it take for person to overlook the health implications that come with consuming animal byproducts and the wealth of information that proves heart disease to be the number one killer in America? How can a person turn a blind eye against the raising, farming and slaughter of living animals just to entertain your mouth for a few minutes? Well, it’s largely to do with how you were raised. Since your inception, you have been conditioned to believe that it’s both morally acceptable and a required necessity of survival. “Beef. It’s what’s for dinner” “Milk does a body good”. ``` SCAMMED AGAIN... ``` What if I told you that you’ve been duped? Would you be insulted if you discovered that in the eyes of the food industry, you are also a farm animal? The meat, cheese, milk and egg industry yields $260,000,000,000 annually from human beings; but the buck doesn’t stop there- the food industry is merely the first stop- we’ve got a long ways to go… Next, you’re passed to the healthcare industry where they harvest 2.5 trillion dollars out of humans every year treating diabetes, cancer and heart disease, Osteoporosis, Liver disease, strokes, lactose Intolerance, Parkinson’s disease and much much more… ``` AND AGAIN. ``` After the food and healthcare industry has sucked the life out of you, then you get passed around to everyone else. You’re going to need to work long hours at the office to support your habit. Your employer may even give you good medical benefits- if not, there’s Obamacare- and they want their share. They’re even garnish your wages, take your car or put a lien on your house. Speaking of houses, you’re going to need some furniture. Department stores are selling record numbers of couches and HD TVs- any idea why? So fat and disabled Americans can tune out of the nightmare and plug into Family Guy and Jersey Shore, all while being bombarded with commercials for Slimfast, Chuck Norris’ Total Gym and of course: Meat, cheese, poultry, fish and eggs. WHAT DOES IT TAKE? 34 million heads were chopped off of cows, but who cares? Not you, you’re trained to think of cows, chickens and pigs animals as food and they do a fantastic job off keeping you out of the loop… To that, I have but one question: Are you ready? Are you strong enough to face the horrors of the truth that you have turned a blind eye to for so long? Or did you read this far, only to turn back and return to your couch and HD TV. I’m about to show you what’s behind the velvet curtain. This video may disturb you, but I ask that you don’t turn away. That uncomfortable feeling means the medicine is working and there is hope for you as a human being. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ksFlFuqeQVk/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AH-BIAC6AKKAgwIABABGFogUihlMA8=&rs=AOn4CLAb-W1dwjCgLl3KirweGmllZsUm0g "How they slaughter cows, chickens, pigs in some farms in America") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksFlFuqeQVk) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/39 "2013-07-18T10:20:15Z")
> [@SyuRi](#): > > Then after a bit more web surfing, i saw a question that put me thinking: so if we don’t eat intelligent animals, what is it that makes us eat stupid animals, and why don’t they have the same rights? Because it is their mind - or at least their potential future mind - that justifies giving someone rights. A topiary bush should not be protected by animal cruelty laws, and a horse should not be protected by the prohibition of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194/40 "2013-07-18T11:27:35Z")
Is eating zombie animals ok? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-intelligent-an-animal-is-the-more-wrong-is-it-to-eat-it/580194.md?page=3)