# The more poor black people a city has, the more likely it is to ban guns. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016 "2009-02-16T01:19:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/21 "2009-02-16T17:23:44Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I shall continue to find unconvincing the maxim “the solution to gun violence is lots more guns,” no matter how eloquently phrased. Why? It does seem counter intuitive, but think about it this way. Criminals don’t want to put their life at risk, if they did, there are higher paying jobs than crime. If they know when they break into a house or rob a person, they might be confronted by an armed citizen, they’re less likely to break into that house. I seem to remember between 30% and 50% of convicted felons worry more about an armed citizen than police officers. And, note: I didn’t say the solution was (although my personal opinion is), I implied that less guns doesn’t prevent it, and more guns won’t increase it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/22 "2009-02-16T17:28:39Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Inspired by a [del]rant[/del] comment made in the “South Side of Chicago” thread:D.C. Chicago. New York. New Orleans. Sure looks like a trend. Here in Minnesota, Ramsey County, which contains the city of Saint Paul, had a gun permit denial rate in 2007 of 14%. Only one other county in the state had a comparable rate, and that was a county that denied one application out of five submitted. St. Paul also has the highest concentration of African-Americans in an otherwise largely white state. > > If this is ignorance, please fight. Duluth had the first urban gun ban in Minnesota, and has one of the smallest per capita African American populations. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/23 "2009-02-16T17:59:25Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Criminals don’t want to put their life at risk… Says who? Criminals, especially violent ones, are not models of rationality. If anything, violent criminals are more likely to engage in risky behavior, not less. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/24 "2009-02-16T19:58:03Z")
Ok; I concede that in the literal sense of a direct correlation, the premise of the OP isn’t true. Ignorance fought. :o I do think **Lee** was onto something: > [@lee](#): > > When I was in Junior High, I lived in a small city which was the biggest city in 100 miles. We had a rifle range in the basement of the school, and I took hunters safety as part of PE and one day two of the students brought their guns in to show them to us. The teacher brought her compound bow in to show us. She used it for deer hunting. In that junior high school, in the middle of the city, I was closer to hunting grounds than I am now to most of the stores that I shop at, but it was still a city. The percentage then of the town that was black was about 12%. The city as a whole was not freaked out about guns because random shootings were not something that happened there. Sure people occasionally got shot, but usually by people they knew. There was not a whole lot of competition in the local illegal drug market, and disputes were largely settled without gunfire. > > I think the reason that big cities are seeking to regulate guns is that so many in the cities have withdrawn from the normal social order and are willing to use firearms to enforce the alternative social order they have chosen, and many who have not forsaken the normal social order get literally caught in the crossfire and so are seeking within the normal social order to remove the guns. It has nothing inherently to do with race. If you look into it, you will find many of those advocating the most vocally for the elimination of hand guns in urban areas are themselves black. In other words, guns aren’t a problem within a healthy society, and an enormous problem within an unhealthy one. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/25 "2009-02-16T19:58:09Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Why? > > It does seem counter intuitive, but think about it this way. Criminals don’t want to put their life at risk, if they did, there are higher paying jobs than crime. IMO one of the more poisonous fallacies of the gun rights/control debate is the notion that there are Regular People and there are Criminals, each in their own ironclad silos, and never the twain shall meet (except in “self defense” hypotheticals, and to a considerably lesser extent, in actual self-defense scenarios). One can comfortably argue that felons shouldn’t have guns and law-abiding citizens should, but what about groups of young men sitting around parking lots, bored and drunk on beer and testosterone? How about the neighbor who’s told you twenty goddamned times to turn your goddamned stereo down or not park in his assigned parking spot, and now wants to show you he means business? How about the ex-husband or boyfriend who hasn’t quite taken “no” for an answer, and doesn’t take kindly to your dating his forever one and only? And so on and so forth, so unfold millions of similar tense, confrontational situations that don’t quite fit the Valiant Citizen vs. Bent-Nosed Crook in a Striped Shirt and Eye Mask hypothetical—just one or more ostensibly law-abiding gun owners, perhaps enjoying their final few moments of law-abiding, if not of life. I don’t favor gun bans or anything of the sort; I acknowledge the personal right to bear arms. But I just can’t see the ubiquity of firearms as a panacea, or even benign. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/26 "2009-02-16T20:17:36Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > IMO one of the more poisonous fallacies of the gun rights/control debate is the notion that there are Regular People and there are Criminals, each in their own ironclad silos, and never the twain shall meet One way of looking at the entirity of Human History and interaction, even at a personal level, is to boil it down to assigning people pidgeon holes in which to keep themselves, being outraged if they don’t stay in them, and trying to punish or kill people if they don’t stick to those roles. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/27 "2009-02-16T20:24:55Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Ok; I concede that in the literal sense of a direct correlation, the premise of the OP isn’t true. Ignorance fought. :o > I do think **Lee** was onto something: > In other words, guns aren’t a problem within a healthy society, and an enormous problem within an unhealthy one. No, _criminals_ aren’t a problem within healthy cities, and an enormous problem within an unhealthy one. Guns are inanimate objects, like cars. Cars are not a problem in areas with low traffic. And cars are not a problem in areas with high traffic. **Bad Drivers** are a problem in areas with high traffic. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I don’t favor gun bans or anything of the sort; I acknowledge the personal right to bear arms. **But I just can’t see the ubiquity of firearms as a panacea, or even benign.** Did you notice how you had to leave out half of my statement for that little part to make sense? > [@Todderbob](#): > > And, note: I didn’t say the solution was (although my personal opinion is), I implied that less guns doesn’t prevent it, and more guns won’t increase it. My personal opinion is that giving people the ability to defend themselves makes for lower crime rates, however that’s not the point I’m trying to get across. The point I’m trying to get across is less guns does not equal less violent crimes. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/28 "2009-02-17T01:19:38Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > No, _criminals_ aren’t a problem within healthy cities, and an enormous problem within an unhealthy one. > > Guns are inanimate objects, like cars. > > Cars are not a problem in areas with low traffic. And cars are not a problem in areas with high traffic. **Bad Drivers** are a problem in areas with high traffic. > Did you notice how you had to leave out half of my statement for that little part to make sense? > > My personal opinion is that giving people the ability to defend themselves makes for lower crime rates, however that’s not the point I’m trying to get across. > > The point I’m trying to get across is less guns does not equal less violent crimes. Yes indeed the easy access and availability of guns in the inner city is why the crime and murder rate is so low in the urban environment. There are lots of guns therefore the crime rate is low. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/29 "2009-02-17T01:46:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Yes indeed the easy access and availability of guns in the inner city is why the crime and murder rate is so low in the urban environment. There are lots of guns therefore the crime rate is low. **Yes**! That’s exactly what I said! Except not even remotely close! Washington DC, which had a complete handgun ban for 30 years. This did nothing to stop or ease the violent crime rate in Washington, D.C. I’ll state again, because apparently the last **two** times I stated it, it wasn’t clear enough. I didn’t say the solution [to lower crime was more guns], I implied that less guns doesn’t prevent [crime], and more guns won’t increase it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/30 "2009-02-17T01:48:05Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Cars are not a problem in areas with low traffic. And cars are not a problem in areas with high traffic. **Bad Drivers** are a problem in areas with high traffic. > Did you notice how you had to leave out half of my statement for that little part to make sense? And, if in any given population, 3% of the drivers are “bad drivers” than your probability of being in traffic with them is much higher during rush hour in Boston than in rural Idaho on a Tuesday night. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/31 "2009-02-17T03:01:26Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > …and more guns won’t increase it. And you demonstrated this, _how?!?!?_ ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/32 "2009-02-17T03:18:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > According to the US census in 2005, 18 cities have a population which is more than 50% black. [Those are as follows](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/In_which_american_cities_do_most_black_Americans_live): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1 Detroit, Michigan 83.73 > > > > 2 Gary, Indiana 81.35 > > > > 3 Birmingham, Alabama 73.46 > > > > 4 Jackson, Mississippi 70.64 > > > > 5 New Orleans, Louisiana 67.25 > > > > 6 Baltimore, Maryland 64.34 > > > > 7 Memphis, Tennessee 61.41 > > > > 8 Atlanta, Georgia 61.39 > > > > 9 Washington, D.C. 60.01 > > > > 10 Richmond, Virginia 57.19 > > > > 11 Savannah, Georgia 57.08 > > > > 12 Newark, New Jersey 53.46 > > > > 13 Flint, Michigan 53.27 > > > > 14 St. Louis, Missouri 51.20 > > > > 15 Cleveland, Ohio 50.99 > > > > 16 Shreveport, Louisiana 50.80 > > > > 17 Portsmouth, Virginia 50.61 > > > > 18 Baton Rouge, Louisiana 50.02 > > I don’t see a trend. [This neat little chart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate) can be sorted by several different means. Try sorting by “Violent Crime,” and then “Murder and Non-negligent Manslaughter.” The Top 18 are: 1. Detroit. 2. Baltimore. 3. St. Louis. 4. Newark. 5. Washington D.C. 6. Oakland, CA. 7. Philadelphia. 8. Atlanta. 9. Buffalo. 10. Cleveland. 11. Cincinnati. 12. Miami. 13. Memphis. 14. Milwaukee. 15. Pittsburgh. 16. Dallas. 17. Houston. 18. Chicago. Yeah. 44.4% correlation between the two. That’s a whole lotta _nothing_, ain’t it? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/33 "2009-02-17T03:29:38Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Washington DC, which had a complete handgun ban for 30 years. This did nothing to stop or ease the violent crime rate in Washington, D.C. Being next door to VA, with what amounts to little gun control at all, not requiring strip searches on anybody coming into DC from VA, and the old tautology, “If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns,” works overtime when talking about people who started out as outlaws. Outlaws want guns and only have to drive a few more miles to get them. DC’s ban was more symbolic than effective because we need more effective national legislation to keep the bad guys from getting guns. We also need to train the ones who already have guns to shoot accurately. Then we can cut down on the number of innocents killed in gang shootouts. I hear the Army has reduced standards enough that a felony conviction or two won’t stand in a recruit’s way. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/34 "2009-02-17T03:33:38Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Being next door to VA, with what amounts to little gun control at all, not requiring strip searches on anybody coming into DC from VA, and the old tautology, “If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns,” works overtime when talking about people who started out as outlaws. Outlaws want guns and only have to drive a few more miles to get them. DC’s ban was more symbolic than effective because we need more effective national legislation to keep the bad guys from getting guns. > > We also need to train the ones who already have guns to shoot accurately. Then we can cut down on the number of innocents killed in gang shootouts. I hear the Army has reduced standards enough that a felony conviction or two won’t stand in a recruit’s way. 😉 You cannot purchase pistols unless you are a resident of the state in which you are purchasing them. This has been a federal law since 1986, and supersedes any state laws. Edit: Virginia has a mandatory 30 day waiting period between pistol purchases. This is more stringent than many other states, and completely unnecessary in my opinion. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And you demonstrated this, _how?!?!?_ I didn’t demonstrate it, however it seems to be relatively self evident to anyone who’s seen the statistics. Just as knife ownership doesn’t increase violent crimes. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/35 "2009-02-17T05:42:19Z")
Gonzomax tells knowing untruths in gun debates. He still insists that there was no such thing as a handgun during the Revolutionary War, and that, if they existed, they served no military purpose. It’s not worth engaging him. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/36 "2009-02-17T06:19:10Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Gonzomax tells knowing untruths in gun debates. He still insists that there was no such thing as a handgun during the Revolutionary War, and that, if they existed, they served no military purpose. > It’s not worth engaging him. Didn’t you know he’s right, though? [They never existed!](http://revolutionarywarantiques.com/Revolutionary-War-Pistols) ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/37 "2009-02-17T06:23:37Z")
> [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](#): > > Guns are more likely to be heavily regulated in a city. > > That’s because a city has a large number of PEOPLE. > > If the same held true in rural areas, you might be on to something, but an urban area tends to regulate guns more heavily because more can go wrong when more people are around. I think you’re on to something here. It’s got to be more about the number of people than just the precentage of the population that’s armed. Over 1/3rd of adults in NH own guns, but we average less than 10 gun murders a year. (the last time I looked, almost half of our murders a year are stabbings. weird.) With less than 1.5 million people, the entire state is dwarfed by the populations of some of the bigger US cities. So there are a lot of guns, but there’s not much crowding, especially when many towns insist you can’t build a house on less than an acre of land - my own town insists on two acres; they’re still trying to decide what legal action to take against a neighbor of mine who defied that edict. Lots of armed people all spread out makes for less conflict than when they’re crowded, I think. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/38 "2009-02-17T11:29:51Z")
Density, not number. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/39 "2009-02-17T11:58:47Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > You cannot purchase pistols unless you are a resident of the state in which you are purchasing them. This has been a federal law since 1986, and supersedes any state laws. 1. You haven’t spent much time in DC, have you? 2. What’s to stop a Virginian from driving guns into DC, filing off the serial numbers, and selling them by the truckload to whoever’s got cash? 3. Speaking of which, how do you think all those handguns got into DC? 4. All of DC’s many suburbs are in either Maryland or Virginia. I’ve known many people–myself and my family included, at one stage of my life–who technically reside in one of those two states and still identify as a Washingtonian without anyone questioning it. Hostile Dialect, Hostile Dialect, Narcissist ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016/40 "2009-02-17T12:42:20Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Density, not number. That’s what I used to think, as well. But then explain Switzerland. Here’s what I think exacerbates crime: 1. Population density 2. An “underclass.” A racially or ethnically identifiable class of people who are treated as second-class citizens. At one point or another in U.S. history, that was anyone who was not white Anglo-Saxon protestant. 3. Rampant (actual) poverty. Some have suggested income disparity between lowest-paid earners and highest-paid; I think actual poverty plays more of a role than disparity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-more-poor-black-people-a-city-has-the-more-likely-it-is-to-ban-guns/486016.md?page=3)