# The Mormons claim a victim **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2000, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699 "2000-03-03T07:12:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699/41 "2000-03-06T21:20:00Z")
Let’s see, one is an intential inflicting of guilt upon the family for a complex issue and the other is merely a prayer. What do you not understand about that SJ? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699/42 "2000-03-07T03:32:00Z")
Please edit “intential” to read “intentional.” Thanks. Now that that’s out of the way: SJ: You can’t seriously believe that my reasoned, rational, and point-by-point refutation of bluebird’s incredibly bad bashing (and I use “bad” in both meanings: as in “not nice” and "not competent) of the LDS. But if you do, oh well, everyone’s a right to their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699/43 "2000-03-07T03:33:00Z")
Drat. Please add after “the LDS” the following words: “was passionate.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699/44 "2000-03-12T06:56:00Z")
For the record: Smilingjaws is the sock puppet user name for bluebird, the incredible bigot of yore, who was not swayed by such minor things as facts. Said bluebird user name is now an inactive account. Gee, ain’t that too bad. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699/45 "2000-03-14T02:50:00Z")
Okatym posted 03-03-2000 10:19 AM > [@](#): > > I feel sorry for this man. He must have been in a lot uf pain, but this is truly tragic for his family. It’s so sad he chose the ultimate manipulation to hurt his poor family And just where was his “poor family” when he needed them? CKDextHavn posted 03-03-2000 12:06 PM > [@](#): > > Don’t get me wrong, I feel for the guy, but I find Mormon-bashing just as reprehensible as gay-bashing. I disagree. People don’t choose to be homosexual. CalifBoomer posted 03-03-2000 10:21 PM > [@](#): > > What Otto is doing here is exploiting the man’s death in yet another effort to place homosexuals in a ‘victim status’ Society has placed homosexuals in a victim status; Otto is imply pointing out what already exists. CalifBoomer posted 03-03-2000 11:34 PM > [@](#): > > There you go again! Attempting to gain ‘victim’ status by equating your lifestyle with blacks. You’ve been well indoctrinated, but the argument is wearing thin. He wasn’t equating his “liufestyle” with blacks, he was equating his _treatment_ with the treatment of blacks. Monty posted 03-04-2000 11:38 AM > [@](#): > > Dex: You and Opal missed where I posted “the leadership of the LDS have consistently preached fellowshipping.” Perhaps it’s because you don’t know the LDS meaning of that term. And how is anyone supposed to know it? Either define it, or don’t use it. CalifBoomer posted 03-05-2000 05:37 PM > [@](#): > > I suspect Rushdooney is talking about spiritual death, not physical death. I don’t see an advocacy for ‘murderous rampages’ here. The phrase “men who lay with men as with women are an abomination unto the Lord and shall be put to death” doesn’t sound familiar to you? > [@](#): > > In any even, you haven’t heard me base any of my arguments on scripture, have you? You _have_ claimed that none one else is advocating death fort homosexuals. Okatym posted 03-06-2000 01:26 PM > [@](#): > > Remember, we have a fundamental right in the USA to practice any religion we want (or not). We also have the right to argue against religions we don’t agree with. [quoe]But just because we don’t agree with their religious beliefs, why belittle or demean people who try to elevate their behaviours based on their religion? [/quote] Well, if someone considers making people miserable because of their orientation “elevating” their behaviors, you bet I’ll belittle him. And I’ll do it because I think that that sort of behavior is reprehensible. > [@](#): > > Even more, why try to change their beliefs to suit ourselves? Because it’s human nature, when seeing something that one considers to be evil, to try to stop it. > [@](#): > > But to expect the whole Church to change their core beliefs to accomodate us is narcissistic, self-righteous, (sp?) and definitely NOT a “right” anyone has. I don’t think that anyone here **expects** change, but many **want** change. ---
**Author:** ![okatym](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/76d3ee/32.png) [@okatym](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/okatym)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699/46 "2000-03-14T16:40:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Because it’s human nature, when seeing something that one considers to be evil, to try to stop it. Exactly. I’m not condemning anyone (I’m not even a Mormon), but how do you like it when they tell you that your behaviour is evil? Are you saying that you have the right to indignation over their beliefs and would press them to change, but they don’t have the right to the same? Is your cause “purer” or more just than theirs because you believe what they are doing is “evil”? HMMMM…sounds familiar. > [@](#): > > I don’t think that anyone here **expects** change, but many **want** change. Oh, please. The title of this thread is “Mormons claim a victim”. Why would people be so willing to blame the Mormons, his family, and community for this death rather than blame the sickness which actually caused it? To force a change is the only reason. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699/47 "2000-03-14T16:54:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by okatym: > > If you don’t agree with the fundamental beliefs of ANY church or organization, don’t participate. That would work well if you were of legal age of consent, independent, free-thinking and not pressured by anyone else. However, as has been pointed out, a religious community is much more than just a theology, and obviously the man who killed himself didn’t see himself as having that choice; otherwise, surely he would have opted to bow out of Mormonism than kill himself. Is the Mormon church solely responsible for this man’s death? Of course not, although he he seemed to think so. Did the church contribute to the mindset that sent him over the edge? Yes. Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699/48 "2000-03-14T16:57:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by okatym: > > Why would people be so willing to blame the Mormons, his family, and community for this death rather than blame the sickness which actually caused it? To force a change is the only reason. I wouldn’t want the Mormons to change one whit, but I _would_ want a gay Mormon who is contemplating suicide because of his conflicts to know that he has other choices besides killing himself. Maybe making more people aware of things like this might save someone’s life. You never know… And, just to clarify, what “sickness” are you referring to - homosexuality or depression? Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) ---
**Author:** ![okatym](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/76d3ee/32.png) [@okatym](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/okatym)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699/49 "2000-03-14T17:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I would want a gay Mormon who is contemplating suicide because of his conflicts to know that he has other choices besides killing himself. So would I. > [@](#): > > And, just to clarify, what “sickness” are you referring to - homosexuality or depression? Do you believe that homosexuality is a sickness? Do you blame his suicide on the fact that he was gay? I don’t. My defense of the Mormons is in spite of my empathy for this man and the pain he suffered. I was referring to his depression. Depressed people have distorted thinking. Those distorted thoughts cause self-destructive actions. Those actions are devastating to everyone he left behind. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699/50 "2000-03-14T19:04:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by okatym: > > Do you believe that homosexuality is a sickness? Do you blame his suicide on the fact that he was gay? I don’t. {hee hee} You’re barking up the wrong tree - I’m gay myself. I was just asking for a clarification on your use of the word “sickness,” as it wasn’t clear which you meant. > [@](#): > > My defense of the Mormons is in spite of my empathy for this man and the pain he suffered. This is not aimed at you, but at everyone - do you think the Mormon community looked at this incident as it truthfully was, and how the deceased meant it to be seen (as evidenced by the note he left), or do you think they just ignored it or covered it up or made it out to seem to be something other than what it was? In other words, did the Mormons say to each other, “What have we done by contributing to this man’s pain?” or did they say, “We pity him for not being strong enough in his beliefs?” I don’t think self-examination occurred here. Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699/51 "2000-03-16T17:37:00Z")
Oh, dear. I hate to post more bad news, but I found this on [PlanetOut.com](http://PlanetOut.com) (3/15/00): > [@](#): > > Another Mormon Prop. 22 Suicide? > > In a report not yet confirmed by PlanetOut News, Chris Rizo of “The California Triangle” says that Proposition 22 has claimed the life of another member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS, the Mormons). It was Rizo who last week broke the story of gay Mormon Stuart Matis in Los Altos, California, who before his suicide had spoken out forcefully against his church’s strong support of the successful March 7 California ballot initiative to deny legal recognition to same-gender marriages another state may someday perform. Now Rizo reports the March 9 death by two apparently self-inflicted gunshot wounds of David James “DJ” Thompson in Mohave County, Arizona. Just hours before his death, Thompson sent an e-mail to a number of friends and family members calling Proposition 22 “a last straw in my lifelong battle to see peace in the world” and denouncing LDS leadership for its “anti-Christ-like political conduct.” Anybody else read anything about this? Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mormons-claim-a-victim/4699.md?page=2)