# The most defensible medieval castle design? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 21, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658 "2012-11-21T00:06:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/41 "2012-11-27T00:32:42Z")
> [@davekhps](#): > > I don’t get the “useless” comments above. Folks _do_ appreciate that castles don’t need to be in sight of trade & travel routes to control them, right? Ideally they would be, but in reality they just need to be close enough to them to support sallies forth. > > Meaning, in “peacetime” or periods of minimal military threat, even an isolated island castle can still control the countryside if it has enough of a garrison present, i.e. forces protected within and sustained by the castle ride out on a regular basis to patrol & control an area. When the seige trains come to town, those forces ride back to the castle and “button up”. Yes, a castle is part of a _system_. Other parts of the system include logistics trains and whatever combined arms (infantry, cavalry, skirmishers, etc.) you can muster. An undefended/insufficiently defended castle will fall, but a properly garrisoned one will allow you to move forces into and out of it as necessary, and, one hopes, eventually allow you the option of falling on some exposed part of the foe, harrying his communications, or something. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/42 "2012-11-27T02:20:52Z")
An island castle, by sheer logic. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/43 "2012-11-27T04:38:56Z")
Hohensalzburg was not the inspiration for the Disneyland castle. Neuschwanstein was. And I don’t think Neuschwanstein was even intended to be a fortress like most castles were; it was designed and built strictly as a showpiece. King Ludwig of Bavaria wanted to incorporate features from the thirteenth and fourteenth century, but since he was living n the mid-1800s, his castle would have vulnerable to more than arrows and lances. You want to see REAL excess, check out Schloss Linderhof! ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/44 "2012-11-27T04:47:05Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > An island castle, by sheer logic. Unless islands are in short supply, and then you make do with what you have. This is why there were many more mountain castles in Japan than island ones. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/45 "2012-11-27T05:34:08Z")
> [@saucywench](#): > > [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Neuschwanstein\_Castle\_LOC\_print.jpg](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Neuschwanstein_Castle_LOC_print.jpg) > [@VOW](#): > > Hohensalzburg was not the inspiration for the Disneyland castle. Neuschwanstein was. . . . I was responding to **saucywench** ’s post, which, I’m pretty sure, points to Neuschwanstein. > [@](#): > > And I don’t think Neuschwanstein was even intended to be a fortress like most castles were; it was designed and built strictly as a showpiece. Exactly so; again, I noted its shell-thin walls, and compared it to another purely ornamental “castle,” Blenheim Palace. It is, however, nicely sited on a bit of a crag of rock, and so isn’t totally worthless for defense! > [@](#): > > You want to see REAL excess, check out Schloss Linderhof! [Pretty! Like a wedding cake!](http://www.schloesser.bayern.de/deutsch/schloss/objekte/li_schl.htm) (Comparison not meant to indicate anything about the crumbs within…) ---
**Author:** ![Freakenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@Freakenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freakenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/46 "2012-11-27T12:19:58Z")
I’d suggest [Saint Malo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Malo) that is surrounded by a sandy floodplain. So attacker can’t reach it with ships or army. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/47 "2012-11-27T15:19:01Z")
Of interest: > **[What Are The Optimal Siege Tactics For Taking Magic Kingdom's Cinderella Castle?](https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2012/07/27/what-are-the-optimal-siege-tactics-for-taking-magic-kingdoms-cinderella-castle/)** > > What are the optimal siege tactics for taking Magic Kingdom's Cinderella Castle? This question was originally answered on Quora by Jonathan Kirk Davis. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/48 "2012-11-27T18:45:59Z")
Just out of curiosity, are there any castles or fortifications located at the edge of a waterfall, like [this?](http://i38.tinypic.com/2814ols.jpg) That’s from a video game, and maybe the water wouldn’t make it very practical, or impossible to build. But any real life castles like that? ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/49 "2012-11-28T01:17:49Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Just out of curiosity, are there any castles or fortifications located at the edge of a waterfall, like [this?](http://i38.tinypic.com/2814ols.jpg) That’s from a video game, and maybe the water wouldn’t make it very practical, or impossible to build. But any real life castles like that? Cool picture. I suspect that it would be very difficult to build, but not necessarily impossible given the right conditions. It probably wouldn’t last very long, though, as waterfalls do tend to erode. But it would be damned defensible while it lasted. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/50 "2012-11-28T03:30:24Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Of interest: > > [What Are The Optimal Siege Tactics For Taking Magic Kingdom's Cinderella Castle?](http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2012/07/27/what-are-the-optimal-siege-tactics-for-taking-magic-kingdoms-cinderella-castle/) Oh, holy God, that is so damned COOL! I knew I wasn’t the only one insane enough to think this! Every time I go to Disneyland, I take a bit of time to sit comfortably in front of the castle, and, in the privacy of my disordered mind, go through exactly those kinds of tactical exercises! (“TEWT: Tactical Exercise Without Troops.” Hypothetical problem-solving, on paper or in the field, deploying imaginary forces to solve real tactical problems. FUN!) ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/51 "2012-11-28T03:42:38Z")
My best design: A fortified stronghold raised within the 10-mile stretch of swamps separating Ramree Island and the Burmese mainland. Light boats might reach it but don’t try marching through the swamp. Anywhere from 300 to 900 Japanese soldiers were eaten by crocodiles in just one evening in 1944. ---
**Author:** ![JDthDJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/779978/32.png) [@JDthDJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDthDJ)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/52 "2012-11-29T10:05:53Z")
Um… an underground castle. Not many medieval examples, considering the technology they had (candles for light use up oxygen awfully fast, particularly when paired with any significantly-sized garrison force), but that’s the dominant idea behind modern fortifications. Pre-modern, any fort built underground would be virtually impossible for foreign invaders to take without inside help. Build it where there is water and stockpile food, and sieges are difficult. Of course, if an invader collapses the opening(s), that’s a problem. You could dig your way out, sure, but it would be a “win the battle, lose the war” scenario. Any underground bunkers during pre-modern times would be purely for defense and not very effective at controlling the surrounding countryside. Just another reason why there aren’t many examples of such- castles were all about controlling the countryside with a place to retreat to when a superior force came knocking. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/53 "2012-11-29T10:57:51Z")
**JDthJD** , google images for San Juan de la Peña. Not quite underground and it’s not a castle, but part of the reason it’s generally considered as “the birthplace of the kingdom of Aragon” is that it wasn’t so much unbreachable as unreachable, which made it a good base for the “upstarts”. ---
**Author:** ![Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boulter_s_Canary)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/54 "2012-11-29T19:21:41Z")
[Beaumaris Castle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaumaris_Castle) in Anglesey, Wales would have been a bastard to attack if it had ever been finished. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/55 "2012-11-29T20:36:01Z")
Whatever their failings as a religious organization, the Cathars could build a freaking castle: [http://www.catharcastles.info/queribus.php?key=queribus](http://www.catharcastles.info/queribus.php?key=queribus) > **[Château de Quéribus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Qu%C3%A9ribus)** > > The Château de Quéribus (in Occitan Castèl de Queribús) is a ruined castle in the commune of Cucugnan in the Aude département of France. It has been listed as a monument historique by the French Ministry of Culture since 1907. > Queribus is one of the "Five Sons of Carcassonne", along with Aguilar, Peyrepertuse, Termes and Puilaurens: five castles strategically placed to defend the French border against the Spanish, until the border was moved in 1659. > It is sometimes regarded as the last Cathar s... ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/56 "2012-11-29T22:07:19Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Whatever their failings as a religious organization, the Cathars could build a freaking castle: They could occupy castles like gangbusters, but they probably didn’t build any :). Queribus is mentioned all the way back in 1020, more than century before Catharism as such was a going concern ( assuming it was, which is a slight controversy ). ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/57 "2012-12-18T12:17:12Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > My best design: > > A fortified stronghold raised within the 10-mile stretch of swamps separating Ramree Island and the Burmese mainland. Light boats might reach it but don’t try marching through the swamp. Anywhere from 300 to 900 Japanese soldiers were eaten by crocodiles in just one evening in 1944. The problem was that the Japanese were the defenders. ---
**Author:** ![Panurge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@Panurge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Panurge)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/58 "2012-12-18T12:37:24Z")
> [@JDthDJ](#): > > Um… an underground castle. > > Not many medieval examples, considering the technology they had (candles for light use up oxygen awfully fast, particularly when paired with any significantly-sized garrison force), but that’s the dominant idea behind modern fortifications. Pre-modern, any fort built underground would be virtually impossible for foreign invaders to take without inside help. Build it where there is water and stockpile food, and sieges are difficult. > > Of course, if an invader collapses the opening(s), that’s a problem. You could dig your way out, sure, but it would be a “win the battle, lose the war” scenario. Any underground bunkers during pre-modern times would be purely for defense and not very effective at controlling the surrounding countryside. Just another reason why there aren’t many examples of such- castles were all about controlling the countryside with a place to retreat to when a superior force came knocking. There were several large underground cities in Cappadokia in Turkey. Like [Derinkuyu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_Underground_City), for instance. I can’t find any information about whether they ever were invaded or not, but it seems they were built primarily for defensive purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/59 "2012-12-18T14:30:55Z")
I don’t know about the castle defenses specifically - but for location alone, [Mont Saint-Michel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Saint-Michel) has to be a strong consideration. And pretty damn cool too. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658/60 "2012-12-18T20:37:35Z")
> [@Kiber](#): > > I don’t know about the castle defenses specifically - but for location alone, [Mont Saint-Michel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Saint-Michel) has to be a strong consideration. And pretty damn cool too. Very cool. But how do they get fresh water? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-defensible-medieval-castle-design/641658.md?page=2)