# The most fucked-up movie ostensibly aimed at children **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 9, 2009, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827 "2009-08-09T11:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![max7345](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@max7345](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/max7345)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/161 "2011-02-21T20:32:33Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > My vote goes to _All Dogs Go To Heaven_ by Don Bluth. Supposedly a fun children’s animated feature about talking animals. In actuality, a surreal and terrifying maelstrom of fear, confusion and brutality, and existential questions of life and death, set in an utterly seedy dockside-slum environment straight out of Samuel Delany’s _Hogg._ > > The plot in summary: two dogs escape from a high-security prison by tunneling through the ground, destroying a water main in the process and presumably causing disastrous damage to the facility. Once out, they re-unite with their old boss Carface, who is a homicidal gangster and extortionist who runs an illegal gambling parlor. (“Rat races,” a funny take-off on real-life dog or horse racing.) The whole thing is set in some kind of underground dockside slum with an incredibly low-rent, sleazy atmosphere. > > The main character, Charlie, betrays his boss, and in return, is shot to death in a drive-by machine-gunning. He finds himself in heaven. A seductive female dog, some kind of angel, greets him and welcomes him to heaven, but Charlie insists on leaving. He has to go back to earth to take revenge on Carface. He somehow ESCAPES from heaven, makes it back to earth and gets back together with his old crime partner Itchy. Charlie murders Carface, and then Carface himself goes to heaven. Charlie, however, dies AGAIN in the process, but this time instead of going to heaven, he goes to _hell!_ He has a nightmarish experience, thrown around by burning lava and giant promontories of flame, tormented by demons and devils. Somehow he manages to get back to earth yet again, where he is severely traumatized and shaken. > > Oh yeah, and there’s a whole subplot about this girl who has the magic ability to talk to horses, who is kidnapped and held prisoner by Carface, who plans on keeping her as a slave and using her talent to predict which horses will win at the races, so he can make money off of them. > > I may be messing up the narrative here, because I don’t really remember it all that well after this point. But there’s a Mardi Gras celebration, and then Charlie and his friend Itchy are captured and then serenaded by a gigantic and utterly flamboyant drag-queen alligator (voiced by Ken Page, who also did Oogie Boogie from Nightmare Before Christmas.) I can’t remember what happens after this. It’s all a blur of frightening and bizarre cartoon imagery. > > It is also filled to the brim with dialog that is WAAAAAAAY over the heads of any children who might be watching it. Horse-racing jargon, old-time mobster slang, and a musical number which includes the line “jilted by a skirt.” There is not a single child in America, anywhere, who knows what “jilted by a skirt” means. > > In short, this is an absolutely badass, awesome movie, but it is in no way, shape or form suited to its target audience. I absolutely loved it as a kid - watching it many times - but I _didn’t fucking understand any of it_ because the atmosphere, the dialog, the moral messages about trying to cheat death or whatever, simply did not compute in my 8-year-old head. > > Any other candidates? …Wow…just wow…SOMEONE clearly paid no attention to the film whatsoever. I saw this movie just last night, so let me clear a lot of things up with you: The only bits you actually got right were the “jilted by a skirt” being in a dance number, the kid being used by Carface, and Charlie escaping from Heaven. First off: Charlie DID NOT betray Carface, it was the other way around - Carface convinced Charlie to give up his share of the gambling business, got him drunk during a goodbye party, and had him RUN OVER in the docks and forced into the lake/river/ocean by a driverless car. You never actually see him get hit. He WAS NOT killed in a drive by shooting. Although there IS a scene where he’s shot at in a drive-by rigged by Carface later in the movie, he manages to come out of it unscathed and nobody gets hurt. Second: Anabelle the archangel whippet never gave off a “sleazy” vibe. I have no idea where in the world you got that idea from. Third: The ONLY mob slang used is when Carface is referring to his plans to kill Charlie by using phrases as “Friends need to be taken care of _bussiness-like_” and “give him his _surprise_” and they aren’t even that hard to decipher. The rest of the film is used in plain, clear, and simple English…except for the “jilted by a skirt” thing. I’m 21 and never heard that phrase before and had no idea what that meant myself. Four: Charlie ONLY DIES TWICE: once in the beginning and again at the end of the film, and both times he winds up in Heaven. The Hell scene you remember is only a nightmare he had. Five: Charlie DID NOT KILL ANYONE! Carface was chased down and eaten OFF SCREEN - as in we can not see or hear him when this happened - by a gator that befriended Charlie earlier in the film. (The gator ate Carface of his own free will. Charlie did not coax him to do this in any way). Six: Ann-Marie WAS NOT A SUBPLOT!!! She was VERY CRUCIAL to the story - perhaps even the central focus of it despite not being the protagonist. Seven: While there is a gator in drag with a musical number, Itchy was NEVER INVOLVED with this scene. And finally: Despite the death, alcohol use, gambling, and potentially frightening nightmare scene, there’s nothing wrong with this film. The moral choice Charlie has near the end teaches us that one good moral can go a long way for our own fate, and Ann-Marie has her own stance with what is right and wrong and either scolds Charlie for stealing and lying to her or reacts all heartbroken when he betrays the friendship they had. She frequently forgives him and gives him second chances however, which is another life lesson we could all learn, especially at an early age. And the movie still has it’s cute and humorous moments for the kids to keep them entertained. And sure, children are impressionable, but they’re _ **not** _ morons; they know when they shouldn’t copy everything they see on TV and they’re perfectly capable of understand the moral lessons the story tells. You, apparently, weren’t one of these children if all you got from it was a blur of terror and confusion. Or perhaps you were and simply forgot about what this movie was trying to tell you over time. Quite honestly, I find it sad that animated films simply aren’t made like this anymore. Everything’s all bright and colorful, squash-and-stretch, and censored now. There’s no real life lessons you can’t learn by simply having friends and the only sad moments are when friendships end and couples break up. There isn’t any dark realism, well thought-out plots, genuine tragedies, and truly touching goodbye scenes anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/162 "2011-02-21T20:40:51Z")
Oh look another old zombie thread. max7345 any debate was long over for a number of years. ---
**Author:** ![DZedNConfused](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dzednconfused/32/15991_2.png) [@DZedNConfused](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DZedNConfused)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/163 "2011-02-21T20:45:16Z")
> [@max7345](#): > > … > Second: Anabelle the archangel whippet never gave off a “sleazy” vibe. I have no idea where in the world you got that idea from. Sleazy? He said seductive… ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/164 "2011-02-21T20:53:02Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > In short, this is an absolutely badass, awesome movie, but it is in no way, shape or form suited to its target audience. To paraphrase a commentator of Mad Magazine: Often, the jokes would go over my head, but that just made me raise my head a little higher. I think there’s a damaging trend in this country to “protect” children from things that actually help them become adults. > [@RikWriter](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I bet I’m far from the only person who rolls his eyes at your interpretation of it, too. My eyes doth also circle. Ah, what the heck, let’s revive it. My candidate is all Japanese anime starting with Akira. There’s a running joke that the way you can tell any movie or cartoon is Japanese or not is if somebody gets raped in the first 30 minutes. I watched [Ninja Scroll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_scroll) in my 20’s, and I was still scarred by it. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/165 "2011-02-21T21:02:45Z")
> [@Harmonious\_Discord](#): > > Oh look another old zombie thread. > > max7345 any debate was long over for a number of years. All you zombies go to heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/166 "2011-02-21T21:08:07Z")
I realized a couple of days ago that **Charlie and the Chocolate Factory** is just a kiddie version of the Saw franchise. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/167 "2011-02-21T21:15:24Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > _The Incredibles_. It’s about as offensive a piece of work as I’ve ever seen, on par with _The Triumph of the Will_ or _Birth of a Nation_. The “villain” wants to give everyone superpowers because… “If everyone is special, then NO ONE is special!” Cue evil laughter and dramatic music. Apparently empowering ordinary people is wrong and bad, and we should all sit and worship John Galt – excuse me, I mean Mr. Incredible – because he is so much greater and more noble than we mere peons. And if anyone wants to make you as strong as Mr. Incredible, then he is evil and you must destroy him. > > The most offensive part of all of this is that it’s shovelled down the throats of children and candy-coated for easy consumption. I kind of took that part as more of a sideways “Harrison Bergeron” idea- instead of handicapping everyone, Syndrome would augment everyone. In the end, the results are the same. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/168 "2011-02-21T21:29:19Z")
By the time I saw _All Dogs Go To Heaven_ (love this movie!) around age 11: I had dealt with the stillbirth of my brother and the awful effect that had on my whole family for years, the suicide of my aunt, been forced to give up all my pets who were hugely emotionally important to me, been emotionally and physically abused by my mom for a long time (and neglected in many ways by both parents), dearly wished my parents would get divorced so I could live in peace with my father, escaped my unhappiness with home life and school by reading thousands of novels (many of them adult novels that dealt with serious/disturbing subject matter), was grappling with my religious faith and that of my family (right on the cusp of deciding I was an atheist), and was intensely curious about sex and adult relationships and seeking out more information about them, even though I had been given plenty of the hard facts already. I’m sure plenty of things still went ‘over my head’ at that age but I understood plenty and thought about life, mortality, morality, heaven, hell (those two especially at that age!), abuse, sex, and human relationships a hell of a lot. This is why my favorite childhood movies are all ‘dark’ and deal with these concepts. They were extremely appropriate for me. The attempted rape scene in _Beethoven’s 2nd_ (WTF) kept me up at night for a while, though. I think it was my first exposure to rape outside of books, and it shook me. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/169 "2011-02-21T21:34:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I realized a couple of days ago that **Charlie and the Chocolate Factory** is just a kiddie version of the Saw franchise. Or maybe Jigsaw is a grown up version of Charlie after 30 years of being raised by Wonka? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Maiira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Maiira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maiira)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/170 "2011-02-21T22:50:59Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > My candidate is all Japanese anime starting with Akira. There’s a running joke that the way you can tell any movie or cartoon is Japanese or not is if somebody gets raped in the first 30 minutes. I watched [Ninja Scroll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_scroll) in my 20’s, and I was still scarred by it. My understanding of anime in general is that it’s like all movies here: there are some that are clearly for kids, and some that are clearly not. In Japan, just because a film or TV series is animated doesn’t mean it’s for kids. _Paprika_, for example, was rated R here in the states, and I don’t really have any reason to believe that it was aimed at children in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_A.Robrin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sam_a.robrin/32/14497_2.png) [@Sam\_A.Robrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_A.Robrin)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/171 "2011-02-21T23:10:56Z")
I always enjoyed imagining how many parents dropped off their 10-year-olds to watch _A Boy and His Dog_, and then had themselves some very bewildered explaining to be done… ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/172 "2011-02-21T23:43:45Z")
Re: The Incredibles: I sometimes think people read into things too much. Not to say propaganda films aren’t possible, but come on. It was a fun film. If it makes the kids old enough to extemporize about it think a little bit, even better. I’m trying to remember what disturbed me about James and the Giant Peach when I was in grade school, but it rather freaked me out, even with just the teacher reading it. I wonder if the film was any different. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/173 "2011-02-22T00:08:39Z")
Let’s see: -It starts with his parents being trampled to death by a stray rhinoceros. -His aunts who care for him are horrifically abusive. -A strange man shows up with glowing green drugs that end up growing the peach. -The peach rolls over his abusive aunts and kills them. -The peach is occupied by giant sentient arthropods and worms, who discuss eating James at first. -The sentient worm is nearly eaten by swarms of seagulls as part of a deliberate plan to save everyone from certain death. What’s not to traumatize? Come to think of it, you could make a pretty good horror movie based on the idea of an abused kid finding an alien vessel piloted by giant bug-creatures, befriending them, and embarking on a voyage of vengeance. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/174 "2011-02-22T00:22:26Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] I realized a couple of days ago that Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is just a kiddie version of the Saw franchise. [/QUOTE] > [@Superhal](#): > > Or maybe Jigsaw is a grown up version of Charlie after 30 years of being raised by Wonka? 😃 Actually, I think it’s closer to a kiddie version of **Se7en** (which **Jigsaw** ripped off anyway). In fact, Kevin Spacey was even in the running to play Wonka (although I suspect that was a rumor planted by someone who was aware of the similarities in theme between the stories). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/175 "2011-02-22T00:50:36Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Actually, I think it’s closer to a kiddie version of **Se7en** (which **Jigsaw** ripped off anyway). In fact, Kevin Spacey was even in the running to play Wonka (although I suspect that was a rumor planted by someone who was aware of the similarities in theme between the stories). Interesting, especially since I’ve seen **Se7en** and not **Saw**. My impression is that in Saw, the bad guy sets up traps in which people’s failings kill them, whereas in Se7en, the bad guy killed people because of their failings in a poetic manner. Is that a fair difference? If so, then I still think it’s more like Saw, since the kids are all mutilated in **Charlie and the Chocolate Factory** due to their own (completely foreseeable) actions when confronted with Wonka’s fiendish contraptions. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/176 "2011-02-22T02:58:38Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > Whats wrong with Old Yeller & Where the Red Fern Grows? Both are stories about young adults maturing and transitioning to adulthood. The deaths of their dogs represent a major step. Killing Old Yeller is what has to be done and the main character choosing to do it himself shows a maturity. The sequel isn’t too bad either but the climax is essentially the same with the boy now having to shoot his new horse. There was a sequel to that?? Why do I now get the feeling that there was or will be an second sequel where the boy, now grown up, has to euthanize his parents? And then they can make a third sequel where he has to committ suicide! ---
**Author:** ![Lucky\_13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucky_13/32/13209_2.png) [@Lucky\_13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky_13)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/177 "2011-02-22T05:13:45Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > My candidate is all Japanese anime starting with Akira. There’s a running joke that the way you can tell any movie or cartoon is Japanese or not is if somebody gets raped in the first 30 minutes. I watched [Ninja Scroll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_scroll) in my 20’s, and I was still scarred by it. It depends on the anime. I don’t recall anyone getting raped in _Sailor Moon_, for example, though there are some scenes in _Sailor Moon R_ that could conceivably count as attempted rape. (Prince Demando’s attempted seduction of Neo Queen Serenity, or the part where the Sailor Senshi are taken prisoner and bound to crosses) Shonen anime is more likely to have rape scenes, though that’s been decreasing in the past few years. A recent episode of _Bleach_ showed a character’s motivation for getting revenge being the villain and/or his followers’ (off-camera) sexual assault of the girl he loved many years earlier. There doesn’t even have to be rape for an anime movie or TV show to be disturbing to a child. Please, don’t let your kid see _Grave of the Fireflies._ Hell, don’t see it yourself unless you’re in the mood to cry uncontrollably. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/178 "2011-02-22T05:33:36Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > My candidate is all Japanese anime starting with Akira. There’s a running joke that the way you can tell any movie or cartoon is Japanese or not is if somebody gets raped in the first 30 minutes. I watched [Ninja Scroll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_scroll) in my 20’s, and I was still scarred by it. > [@Lucky\_13](#): > > There doesn’t even have to be rape for an anime movie or TV show to be disturbing to a child. Please, don’t let your kid see _Grave of the Fireflies._ Hell, don’t see it yourself unless you’re in the mood to cry uncontrollably. _Ninja Scroll_ and _Grave of the Fireflies_ (among many examples) are not aimed at children. Animation =/= children’s movies. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/179 "2011-02-22T07:18:47Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > My candidate is all Japanese anime starting with Akira. There’s a running joke that the way you can tell any movie or cartoon is Japanese or not is if somebody gets raped in the first 30 minutes. I watched [Ninja Scroll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_scroll) in my 20’s, and I was still scarred by it. Akira is rated R, and Ninja Scroll is Unrated in the US (which goes along with the R rating it got in Canada, Australia and some other countries imdb lists)…I seriously doubt either was aimed at kids. I know my brother had to talk my parents into buying Akira for him since he wasn’t old enough to buy an R-rated movie yet when we saw it. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827/180 "2011-02-22T07:34:15Z")
I’m having trouble following this zombie thread. Could you tell me, who is John Galt? 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-fucked-up-movie-ostensibly-aimed-at-children/505827.md?page=10)