# The most hated man in the Toronto area - you almost feel sorry for him **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 7, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448 "2016-01-07T22:19:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/61 "2016-01-10T16:15:51Z")
Does Saskatoon have enough rural white supremacist voters to attract Trump’s attention? If so, you might get a Great new interchange. Geography was never his strong suit and you just might slip this whole Canadian thing in under his radar. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/62 "2016-01-10T16:25:22Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Does Saskatoon have enough rural white supremacist voters to attract Trump’s attention? If so, you might get a Great new interchange. Geography was never his strong suit and you just might slip this whole Canadian thing in under his radar. 😃 Not worth it. He’s not sharp on geography, but he’s aces at dodging bills. He’ll either send the bill to the Canadian government or he’ll declare bankruptcy. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/63 "2016-01-10T18:26:14Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Not worth it. He’s not sharp on geography, but he’s aces at dodging bills. He’ll either send the bill to the Canadian government or he’ll declare bankruptcy. Then you’ll have two people to hate; the drunk Ferrari crasher and the Great Welsher: DT hisself. I’m sure Mr. Ferrari will appreciate the distraction 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/64 "2016-01-11T15:41:21Z")
I’ve given it more thought and dropping them into the ocean in a sea container is not the appropriate means of dealing with them. Having them experience the grief of every single person they’ve hurt might do it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/65 "2016-02-05T19:33:46Z")
> [@swampspruce](#): > > I’ve given it more thought and dropping them into the ocean in a sea container is not the appropriate means of dealing with them. Having them experience the grief of every single person they’ve hurt might do it, though. There was an episode of ST-TNG in which a certain culture didn’t have capital punishment. What they did instead was implant the final memories and feelings of the murder victim in the mind of the killer. Then, once every fourteen hours, the killer would relive the pain and suffering of the victim. Most people implanted were said to kill themselves, saving the state the onus of, or guilt for, capital punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/66 "2016-02-05T19:49:35Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Does Saskatoon have enough rural white supremacist voters to attract Trump’s attention? If so, you might get a Great new interchange. Geography was never his strong suit and you just might slip this whole Canadian thing in under his radar. 😃 [Canada will beat Trump in the 2016 Presidential election.](https://youtu.be/sCyzdD0vYOw) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/67 "2016-02-06T00:29:20Z")
[Marco Muzzo granted bail after guilty plea in impaired-driving deaths of 3 children, grandfather](http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/02/04/guilty-plea-expected-at-marco-muzzo-court-appearance.html) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/68 "2016-02-06T01:36:01Z")
Wow. I assume that amount of money is nothing to his family? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/69 "2016-02-06T01:47:58Z")
A million here, a million there, soon you’re talking _real_ money. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/70 "2016-02-28T04:11:42Z")
Crown and defence have made their submissions on sentence; Judge has reserved her decision to March 29. Defence is asking for 8 years; Crown seeks 10 to 12 years in prison and that he be banned from driving for eight to 12 years. The parents of the dead children walked out as soon as he began to speak: [Marco Muzzo offers tearful apology to grieving couple at sentencing hearing](http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/02/24/marco-muzzo-expected-to-speak-at-sentencing-hearing.html) The mom gave a powerful statement herself the day before: [‘You killed all my babies,’ grieving mother tells Marco Muzzo](http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/02/23/sentencing-hearing-today-for-marco-muzzo.html) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2016, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/71 "2016-02-28T06:28:10Z")
Started a poll over in IMHO: [Friend pleads guilty to 4 counts of drunk driving causing death: do you write a reference letter?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=785411) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2016, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/72 "2016-02-28T09:58:53Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Crown and defence have made their submissions on sentence; Judge has reserved her decision to March 29. > > Defence is asking for 8 years; Crown seeks 10 to 12 years in prison and that he be banned from driving for eight to 12 years. Grossly inadequate. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/73 "2016-02-28T17:07:42Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Grossly inadequate. I don’t agree. Check out these sentencing ranges, as suggested by MADD (an advocacy group for victims of drunk driving). Warning, PDF. [http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwip2PK--JrLAhUjroMKHZ-zBRoQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.madd.ca%2Fmedia%2Fdocs%2FMADD\_Canada\_Sentencing\_Framework\_FINAL.pdf&usg=AFQjCNED4TzO-927-ZTnh0XsUm3hDtHgMQ&bvm=bv.115339255,d.amc](http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwip2PK--JrLAhUjroMKHZ-zBRoQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.madd.ca%2Fmedia%2Fdocs%2FMADD_Canada_Sentencing_Framework_FINAL.pdf&usg=AFQjCNED4TzO-927-ZTnh0XsUm3hDtHgMQ&bvm=bv.115339255,d.amc) 8-12 years range, in the Canadian context, is very stiff. Remember that these things are relative to other sentences for other serious crimes. Canadian sentences are typically shorter than those in the US across the board. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/74 "2016-04-03T02:46:36Z")
Muzzo got sentenced earlier this week. Judge split the difference and got 10 years, instead of the 8 the defence asked for, and the 12 that the Crown sought as the upper range. [Marco Muzzo sentenced to 10 years in prison for Vaughan crash that killed 4](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/marco-muzzo-sentencing-1.3509524) ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/75 "2016-04-03T04:32:28Z")
The next question in the US would be: how long will he actually serve? Does parole and time for good behavior and so on work the same in Canada? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/76 "2016-04-03T06:26:01Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > The next question in the US would be: how long will he actually serve? Does parole and time for good behavior and so on work the same in Canada? Pretty much. If he’s a model prisoner and the parole board is favourably inclined he’ll likely spend about 1/3 of his sentence in prison. He also gets credit for time already served. Obviously being out on parole is conditional on staying clean until the full 10 years is up. According to the linked story, his sentence also includes a 12-year driving ban that begins when he is released. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/77 "2016-04-03T06:45:54Z")
He’ll get credited for time served at 1.5 days for every day in custody prior to conviction. Canadian law has automatic time off for good behaviour. Good article that summarises it: [Reasonable Doubt: The Marco Muzzo case and an overview of sentencing in Canada](http://www.straight.com/news/670251/reasonable-doubt-marco-muzzo-case-and-overview-sentencing-canada) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/78 "2016-04-09T14:42:54Z")
Should he should count his blessings that he’s not in America? If he were, would he not be liable to be sued? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/79 "2016-07-30T03:31:30Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What a terribly sad case. I believe there was just a similarly devastating drunk-driving multiple fatality in Saskatoon, too. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Yes. Family of four went out late at night to see the Northern Lights. > > Coming home, they got t-boned. > Mom and Dad died at the scene. > Five year old daughter and two year old son died in hospital. > > Driver of the other car is facing four charges of impaired driving causing death. An update: drunk driver pled guilty this week and got a ten year sentence: [‘Horrific and preventable:’ Drunk driver gets 10 years for crash that killed Van De Vorst family](http://thestarphoenix.com/news/crime/impaired-driver-who-killed-van-de-vorst-family-sentenced-to-10-years2) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/80 "2017-12-08T03:32:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@Gorsnak](#): > > > > The intersection is also at fault, because it’s structured such that any lapse of judgement whether it be that of an impaired driver or that of a sober driver is likely to cause a high-speed T-bone (through-traffic speed limit is 110km/h). Just because impaired drivers are a menace independent of badly designed intersections doesn’t mean we can’t take the opportunity to improve the design so that the inevitable accidents there are less likely to be fatal. > > Agreed. There can be more than one contributing factor to an accident, and a highway design flaw doesn’t excuse someone who was breaking the law anyway. > > Which intersection is this, **Gorsnak**? An update from last summer that I just remembered (as a result of the thread about **Karl Gauss** , the OP of this thread). SGI (the government insurance office which insures all drivers) has launched a legal action against the two bars which served the driver of the car. SGI’s position is that provincial law prohibits bars and bar staff from serving someone who is clearly impaired, and that the two bars breached that statutory obligation. So, SGI has concluded that there’s more than one cause to this accident. I’ve not heard anything about this law suit since the summer. [SGI suing bars that served impaired driver who killed Saskatoon family Legal action 1st of its kind in Saskatchewan](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sgi-sask-drunk-driving-case-1.4192987) > [@](#): > > Saskatchewan’s public auto insurer SGI filed a statement of claim Thursday against two bars that served the impaired driver who killed the Van de Vorst family of four in January 2016. > … > Industrial Kitchen & Bar and Crackers Licensed Cocktail & Dining Room in Saskatoon both served Catherine McKay the night of the incident. > > Bar staff should have noticed how intoxicated McKay was, Cameron said. > > “Let’s not sugar-coat this,” he said, after a reporter asked how bar staff would have known. “Three times [the limit].” > … > The maximum amount SGI will be able to recover in the suit is $95,000, as prescribed under the Fatal Accidents Act, and there is potential for the matter to be settled outside of court, he said. > > SGI says it plans to pursue legal action against other establishments in similar cases, when warranted. > > SGI will also be suing McKay, Cameron said, noting that action has not yet been launched. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448.md?page=5)