# The most hated man in the Toronto area - you almost feel sorry for him **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 7, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448 "2016-01-07T22:19:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/81 "2017-12-08T04:20:35Z")
As horrible as this is, I think it raises a difficult ethical issue. Driving drunk is wrong (obviously) because it greatly increases the prior probability that you might cause a crash. But the actual consequences (for a given level of impairment) are then random. Take 10 equally impaired\* people: 1 kills an entire family, while 9 (through dumb luck) either get home safely or are pulled over by a cop before hurting anyone. It’s not clear to me why that 1 guy is an absolute pariah, while the 9 deserve a lesser punishment. All 10 acted equally recklessly in increasing the probability that they might kill someone. Which of the 10 _actually_ turned out to kill someone was just dumb luck. \*adjusting for alcohol tolerance, i.e. equally poor driving ability ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/82 "2017-12-08T06:01:51Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > As horrible as this is, I think it raises a difficult ethical issue. Driving drunk is wrong (obviously) because it greatly increases the prior probability that you might cause a crash. But the actual consequences (for a given level of impairment) are then random. Take 10 equally impaired\* people: 1 kills an entire family, while 9 (through dumb luck) either get home safely or are pulled over by a cop before hurting anyone. It’s not clear to me why that 1 guy is an absolute pariah, while the 9 deserve a lesser punishment. All 10 acted equally recklessly in increasing the probability that they might kill someone. Which of the 10 _actually_ turned out to kill someone was just dumb luck. > > \*adjusting for alcohol tolerance, i.e. equally poor driving ability Seems pretty simple to me. You point a gun in the direction of some people and squeeze off several shots. There is some indeterminate probability that one or more of those people will experience injury or death. Hence, you can be prosecuted for, at the very least, reckless endangerment and go to prison even if no one is hit. Driving impaired is analogous, especially if you are in falling-down mode. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/83 "2018-12-05T06:05:43Z")
An update: [Marco Muzzo lack of insight into binge drinking habits led to parole decision](https://globalnews.ca/news/4682464/marco-muzzo-parole-decision-reason/) New info has come out showing that this wasn’t just a one-off incident, and that Muzzo concealed a past history of binge drinking: > [@](#): > > In trying to paint himself as a responsible drinker who made a deadly mistake, a drunk driver who killed three children and their grandfather revealed a lack of insight into his drinking habits and the risk they pose to others, the Parole Board of Canada said Tuesday. > > "You have maintained from the very outset that you are not addicted to alcohol and while this may be true, your continued rigidity and lack of insight as to what that definition may mean has prevented you from recognizing that an actual problem exists,” the board wrote. > > “During the hearing, for the first time since you were arrested, you outlined a significant history of binge drinking and this, coupled with your lack of understanding on the issue of impairment, leads the board to conclude your risk remains undue.” > > … > > At the hearing, the board pressed Muzzo on an incident that took place in 2012, three years before the fatal crash, but that did not come to light during his court proceedings. Nor was it brought to the attention of his case management team until weeks before the hearing. > > In that incident, Muzzo and a friend became belligerent and threatening after being barred from a strip club, then tried to kick out the windows of a police cruiser after his arrest. The parole board heard he was charged with public intoxication and held until he sobered up. > > While Muzzo initially said he had forgotten the incident, in fact, he was “hoping that the incident would never be discussed,” the board wrote in its decision. > > “It would seem you were trying to trying to present yourself as a modest and responsible drinker who had simply made a terrible mistake on the day of the fatal collision,” it said. > > “In the board’s view, you intentionally failed to disclose key information as you were hoping to paint yourself in a better light. In reality, you were simply impeding the progress you might have otherwise made.” ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/84 "2018-12-05T11:08:14Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > An update: > > [Marco Muzzo lack of insight into binge drinking habits led to parole decision](https://globalnews.ca/news/4682464/marco-muzzo-parole-decision-reason/) > > New info has come out showing that this wasn’t just a one-off incident, and that Muzzo concealed a past history of binge drinking: How the heck does a guy with a ten year sentence have a parole hearing after one year? Is this normal in Canada? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/85 "2018-12-05T15:13:12Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > How the heck does a guy with a ten year sentence have a parole hearing after one year? Is this normal in Canada? Sentences in Canada, like the US, are imposed with an integrated parole eligibility date. In Muzzo’s case he was ordered to serve a minimum of one third of his sentence. He went to prison in April 2016, so he’s now served a third of his sentence (~140 weeks post-judgment plus ~25 weeks of credit for time served). One third of a sentence is broadly in line with what most US offenders serve, assuming good behavior (except for violent or otherwise aggravated offenses, which usually require that a majority of the guideline sentence be served before parole). ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/86 "2018-12-05T15:21:07Z")
He can afford a private jet and a Ferrari, but he can’t afford a chauffeur? He has to drive drunk, instead? Fuck him. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/87 "2018-12-05T15:27:42Z")
That despicable idiot is a “yeah, but” and should never see the light of day again. :Yeah, but I’ve never been a real binge drinker…" “Yeah, but I never had problems with alcohol before” “Yeah, but the roadway was at fault too” “Yeah, but my friends were at fault too” “Yeah, but the bartenders were at fault too” “Yeah, but the four people should not have been out on that street so late at night, so it’s THEIR fault” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/88 "2018-12-06T17:24:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sentences in Canada, like the US, are imposed with an integrated parole eligibility date. In Muzzo’s case he was ordered to serve a minimum of one third of his sentence. He went to prison in April 2016, so he’s now served a third of his sentence (~140 weeks post-judgment plus ~25 weeks of credit for time served). One third of a sentence is broadly in line with what most US offenders serve, assuming good behavior (except for violent or otherwise aggravated offenses, which usually require that a majority of the guideline sentence be served before parole). That’s true of most US state sentences, but not so in the US federal system, as I recall? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/89 "2018-12-06T17:42:35Z")
Possibly. But federal prosecutions are a tiny, tiny fraction of U.S. criminal cases. ~69,000 people were charged with federal crimes last year, while 2.9 million were charged with state _felonies_ alone in 2007 (the last year I could find national numbers for). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/90 "2018-12-06T17:53:12Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > He can afford a private jet and a Ferrari, but he can’t afford a chauffeur? He has to drive drunk, instead? > > Fuck him. But that would mean that some other man would be driving his penis. I mean, car. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/91 "2018-12-07T21:27:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > 2.9 million were charged with state _felonies_ alone in 2007 The entire population of Newfound and Labrador and Price Edward Island and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick – the entire Maritimes – is .5 million less. We gotta close the border and build a wall. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/92 "2018-12-08T03:00:49Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The entire population of Newfound and Labrador and Price Edward Island and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick – the entire Maritimes – is .5 million less. > > We gotta close the border and build a wall. 😉 Prince Edward Island (153K), Nova Scotia (960K), and New Brunswick (770K) = the entire Maritimes (1.88M). The Maritimes + Newfoundland and Labrador (525K) = The Atlantic provinces (2.41M). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/93 "2018-12-08T03:20:04Z")
I think that’s what **Muffin** is saying (except that solecism of lumping N&L into the Maritimes): total population of the Atlantic provinces is 0.5 million less than that of the total state felonies in one year. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/94 "2018-12-08T05:23:11Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/95 "2018-12-08T05:47:54Z")
Damn, it would be nice to read one thread that Trump doesn’t get brought up in, I’m still waiting for him to show up in the bronchial tree blood clot thread. If they were my kids I’d make sure if it was the last thing I ever did to kill the son of a bitch as soon as he walked out of prison. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/96 "2018-12-08T06:14:39Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I think that’s what **Muffin** is saying (except that solecism of lumping N&L into the Maritimes): total population of the Atlantic provinces is 0.5 million less than that of the total state felonies in one year. Yup. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/97 "2018-12-08T10:44:20Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > There’s been an interesting development in the province of British Columbia. They’ve moved away from criminal prosecutions for first offences and concentrate their efforts on administrative penalties, education of impaired drivers, more spot checks, and so on. The Spanish experience with the “educational approach” (stuff such as sending police vans with breathalizers to the parking lots of dance clubs) has been generally positive; many people, specially young ones, discover that they are over the limit or test positive for other things when they didn’t feel impaired, and a lot of them take the warnings to heart. You can even, if you see a cop car, ask if they happen to have a breathalizer and get checked. And they’re happy to give you The Lecture on what works and what doesn’t, public transportation resources in your area, etc. I think it’s part of the reason those people who stay off the “bah, it’s not important (since it’s li’l ol’ me doing it)” wagon tend to thoroughly despise those who sit in it. Entitled jerks have always tended to clump together, but now they’re more likely to have that as the only option as other people ostracise them. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/98 "2018-12-10T16:35:29Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I think that’s what **Muffin** is saying (except that solecism of lumping N&L into the Maritimes): total population of the Atlantic provinces is 0.5 million less than that of the total state felonies in one year. [My underlining] I learned a new word today! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2022, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/99 "2022-06-21T02:39:19Z")
Sad bump: The father of the three dead children has died, on Father’s Day, the day after his wife posted that they had broken up. The language used by the police chief in the article makes me wonder … > [@](#): > > York Regional Police Chief Jim MacSween confirmed the passing of Edward Lake in a [message](https://twitter.com/chiefmacsween/status/1539026219106291718) posted to social media Monday night. > > “This evening I was very saddened to learn of the tragic death of Ed Lake. The losses to the Neville-Lake family are heart wrenching,” MacSween wrote 😢😰😔 ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2022, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448/100 "2022-06-21T03:26:47Z")
This bump prompted me to check out his current status. Muzzo was granted day parole in April, 2020. That’s exactly four years after he first went to prison. He got full parole in February, 2021, ten months later. He is still subject to a total alcohol prohibition, driving suspension, and other conditions. Last I heard there was some controversy over his wanting to live near the area of the crash, close to the HQ of the family business, which was deemed insensitive. At the time of full parole he was renting premises away from the area. I’m a believer in rehabilitation and second chances, but time and time again this asshole has shown zero empathy or genuine remorse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-hated-man-in-the-toronto-area-you-almost-feel-sorry-for-him/742448.md?page=6)