# The most important thing you need to know about the voter ID issue . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813 "2013-07-29T14:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/221 "2013-07-31T18:21:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So the question then should be: “Is the proposed burden reasonable?” Well, not really… Let’s have a story: I go in for my annual checkup, and my physician suggests that I start taking a prescription drug to protect me from the effects of a serious condition. Like a clever boy, I decide to get a second opinion, this doctor points out three things: 1. The drug is an effective treatment for this grave condition, and is extremely cheap. I’m very glad that he can confirm the validity of this treatment. 2. It is generally safe, but there are anecdotal reports that this drug has side effects This is interesting, but not necessarily conclusive. Side effects are a burden that come with most all drugs. 3. I don’t actually HAVE the condition that this drug is intended for. This is where the whole thing falls apart. Asking yourself if the side effects are reasonable is a smart thing to do, if you have the disease. If you don’t, the entire idea of taking a drug to treat it makes no sense. We don’t have a voter impersonation problem. The burden of dealing with the solution to this problem shouldn’t even be discussed, because we don’t need any solution in the first place. If you demand an answer… Zero. Zero burden is reasonable, anything higher is unreasonable, given that the law is not actually fixing a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/222 "2013-07-31T19:09:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Waiting ten hours to vote is not reasonable, but requiring that people get a free ID is reasonable. Is the ID really free? Is obtaining all the documentation to obtain a state ID free (e.g. birth certificate)? Is travel to the state location where you get the ID free? For instance almost a third of Texas counties (as an example) do not have driver’s license offices (the places for these IDs). Is the state picking up the tab for all of it? I really do not know. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/223 "2013-07-31T19:15:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But with the current “system”, how would you even catch them? If these people just live in a shadowy way with no identification, who is to say who they are? > > I suspect if nobody had any ID, and the law says as it does now that you must be 21 to drink, you wouldn’t catch too many people violating that either. If it’s just totally on the honor system, how do you verify? Amazing how the country got this far with practically no fraud of this sort happening. 237 years and most of that without photo IDs being required. Hell, even into the 1980’s [many state driver’s licenses still did not have photos on them](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver%27s_license_in_the_United_States#Use_as_identification_and_proof_of_age). Currently most states do not require a photo ID to vote. [CITE](http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx) And despite this near complete lack of photo IDs in US voting history barely any examples of actual voter fraud (of this sort) has been found. Must be magic. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/224 "2013-07-31T19:21:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is travel to the state location where you get the ID free? For instance almost a third of Texas counties (as an example) do not have driver’s license offices (the places for these IDs). Forgot to add that if they have no photo ID then do not drive (at least not legally). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/225 "2013-07-31T19:33:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let’s put those goalposts back yet again. I said nothing about the motives of those who_vote_ for such laws-I distinctly used the word “created”. Yes: “And I don’t agree that such a law should be created by those who would hope that such a thinning will benefit their own party.” And my response is: whether you agree or not, those people do get to create those laws as long as they’re in office. And that’s not going to change. Continue to complain about it as much as you wish, however; it’s good exercise. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/226 "2013-07-31T19:34:40Z")
The obligatory **Bricker** “neener-neener”. Duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/227 "2013-07-31T19:34:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is the ID really free? > > Is obtaining all the documentation to obtain a state ID free (e.g. birth certificate)? > > Is travel to the state location where you get the ID free? For instance almost a third of Texas counties (as an example) do not have driver’s license offices (the places for these IDs). > > Is the state picking up the tab for all of it? > > I really do not know. No. But it’s not free to drive to a polling place. It’s not free to take off time from work to go vote. We don’t have a standard that says, “You can vote at absolutely zero personal cost to you.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/228 "2013-07-31T19:37:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. But it’s not free to drive to a polling place. It’s not free to take off time from work to go vote. It is free to get an absentee/vote-by-mail ballot, and almost free, in your sense, to vote early. As for taking time off – good point! **Weekend voting now!** ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/229 "2013-07-31T19:42:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The obligatory **Bricker** “neener-neener”. Duly noted. No complaints about “neener-neener” can be heard from the person who says [this.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16526138&postcount=201) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/230 "2013-07-31T19:42:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. But it’s not free to drive to a polling place. It’s not free to take off time from work to go vote. > > We don’t have a standard that says, “You can vote at absolutely zero personal cost to you.” Ten hours in line at a poll is too much, but ten hours at the DMV is fine? Perhaps your partisan zeal is showing. Please explain to me how an intelligent person can justify making it much harder for tens of thousands of people to vote to negate ten or fewer fraudulent votes. You want to cause huge impacts to elections to stop a microscopically tiny impact. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/231 "2013-07-31T19:43:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It is free to get an absentee/vote-by-mail ballot, and almost free, in your sense, to vote early. As for taking time off – good point! **Weekend voting now!** Sure. But even then, there’s time required, as well as the time and expense required to get the necessary ID to register to vote, and the time required to actually register to vote. Right? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/232 "2013-07-31T19:45:16Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You want to cause huge impacts to elections to stop a microscopically tiny impact. Man, this is really affecting my confidence as a voter. Someone should really put a stop to these voter ID laws in order to restore it. Who will pick up this torch? If only there were a crusader who was interested in preserving voter confidence… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/233 "2013-07-31T19:45:59Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Amazing how the country got this far with practically no fraud of this sort happening. > > 237 years and most of that without photo IDs being required. Hell, even into the 1980’s [many state driver’s licenses still did not have photos on them](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver%27s_license_in_the_United_States#Use_as_identification_and_proof_of_age). > > Currently most states do not require a photo ID to vote. [CITE](http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx) > > And despite this near complete lack of photo IDs in US voting history barely any examples of actual voter fraud (of this sort) has been found. > > Must be magic. No. It must be a combination of two factors: not being able to measure the extent of illegal voting, and not being aware of the possibility – remote but present – of a huge consequence on a national scale. Florida in 2000 changed that. You could as well argue that hijackers in planes are not a threat, because of the years of commercial aviation that went by with only a few planes diverted to Cuba as a consequence of hijackers. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/234 "2013-07-31T19:49:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. It must be a combination of two factors: not being able to measure the extent of illegal voting, and not being aware of the possibility – remote but present – of a huge consequence on a national scale. And once again, your solution makes the problem worse, not better. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/235 "2013-07-31T19:53:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. But even then, there’s time required, as well as the time and expense required to get the necessary ID to register to vote, and the time required to actually register to vote. > > Right? Well, of course. Short of some kind of universal mechanically-assisted telepathy where you vote via the cell-modem implant in your skull, there is no conceivable method of conducting elections that does not require **some** kind of effort on the part of the voter. Of course. WTF is your **point?!** That is absolutely and completely irrelevant to the obvious and indisputable democratic principle that the state should **minimize** the burden of voting in all ways possible and consistent with ballot-integrity. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/236 "2013-07-31T19:54:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You could as well argue that hijackers in planes are not a threat, because of the years of commercial aviation that went by with only a few planes diverted to Cuba as a consequence of hijackers. No, \*you \*could as well argue that National ID cards are a good idea to prevent hijackings. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/237 "2013-07-31T20:02:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. It must be a combination of two factors: not being able to measure the extent of illegal voting, This is untrue. It is trivially easy to measure the extent of voter impersonation, which is the only illegal voting prevented by Voter ID. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/238 "2013-07-31T20:02:57Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Man, this is really affecting my confidence as a voter. Someone should really put a stop to these voter ID laws in order to restore it. Who will pick up this torch? Will [Mark Pocan and Keith Ellison](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=695622) do? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/239 "2013-07-31T20:18:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I acknowledge that waiting ten hours would keep legitimate voters from voting. > > If the photo ID requirement keeps a voter from voting, that’s an unreasonable choice on the part of that voter, and I don’t agree the law should bend to accommodate his unreasonable choice. So no, then. Well, at least I’ve learned to verify first before diving into the knothole. The voter who chooses not to wait has made an unreasonable decision too. There are no unfair burdens, as long as the court and/or legislature does not deem them so. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/240 "2013-07-31T20:20:42Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > And once again, your solution makes the problem worse, not better. Since when have conservatives opposed multimillion dollar government programs designed to address a problem that doss not exist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813.md?page=13)