# The most important thing you need to know about the voter ID issue . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813 "2013-07-29T14:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/261 "2013-08-01T02:41:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, you are the state that elected Rudy Boschowitz and nearly made Allen Quist Governor. At that point in time, they didn’t have the benefit of my presence. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/262 "2013-08-01T02:43:33Z")
It is not at all impossible to detect in person voter fraud. We’ve been through this before. All you would need to do would be to go through the book and follow up with people who are recorded as having voted. If they say they did not vote, it is either in person vote fraud or a faulty memory/false report. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/263 "2013-08-01T02:52:16Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It is not at all impossible to detect in person voter fraud. We’ve been through this before. > > All you would need to do would be to go through the book and follow up with people who are recorded as having voted. If they say they did not vote, it is either in person vote fraud or a faulty memory/false report. If it were as easy as some here suggest it would have been done. Voter fraud is nothing new and people certainly engage in it. In person voter fraud is the worst of all possible means of voter fraud except, perhaps, in very small elections. Ballots in the US are cast in private. Even if someone paid a lot of people to vote for their guy/gal there is no way to be sure the people you paid voted as you wanted. Consider the cost of hiring thousands of people (at least…necessary to swing an election). Consider the penalties for being caught which are substantial. You will have to pay them well. Add to that the chances of keeping several thousand (at least) people from spilling the beans on your scheme. Add to that the chances that election officials will not notice. TL;DR This sort of voter fraud SUCKS! It is rare NOT because people are nice but because it is a SUPREMELY shitty way of rigging an election. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/264 "2013-08-01T03:00:27Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If you support voter ID laws then you are supporting something that is distinctly conservative. Asserted without evidence. That it might benefit the GOP is no evidence that it is conservative in principle. I would like all citizens to be registered, DNA samples and biometric scans on file, and register and restrict their firearms too. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Ballots in the US are cast in private. Even if someone paid a lot of people to vote for their guy/gal there is no way to be sure the people you paid voted as you wanted. Except in Oregon. Yet lots of progressives support this! Drives me nuts. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/265 "2013-08-01T03:08:16Z")
Even if there’s a problem, and I don’t think there’s a problem. but let’s say there is, … how is the solution to create an expensive bureaucracy which collects and stores personally identifying information? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/266 "2013-08-01T03:11:32Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Asserted without evidence. **Bricker** supports it. I rest my case. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/267 "2013-08-01T03:21:16Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It is not at all impossible to detect in person voter fraud. . . . A bloke I know voted twice. He registered once at his mother’s address, and once at the address he was living in (in another city) as a student. He got caught. (The judge let him plea bargain, as it was his first offense, and was just a damn fool student prank, not part of a conspiracy to affect an election’s outcome.) As for voting machines, one election morning, here in San Diego, we found the machines not working. Techs had to come around to every precinct to repair them. One man, at my precinct, had a plane to catch – that’s why he’d come first thing in the morning – and ended up losing his opportunity to vote. He begged to be allowed to write down some kind of provisional ballot, but the poll workers couldn’t permit it. So…anecdotal, but there ya go…one case of voter fraud, and one guy denied the right to vote. Adds up to a tidal wave of fraud and misfeasance, I guess! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/268 "2013-08-01T05:37:21Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > any response to the Carter Center stuff I posted? It seems to support a lot of what we’ve been saying here. It says that there is a real danger of voter ID laws disenfranchising voters. It goes on to say that voter ID laws can be designed to avoid disenfranchisement and offers proposals on how to achieve this. But then it goes on to say that no state that has enacted voter ID laws has used any of the proposed means of avoiding disenfranchisement. And to quote the report: _“While the numbers of registered voters without valid photo IDs were few, the groups least likely to have them were women, African-Americans and Democrats.”_ So the unavoidable conclusion is that voter ID laws have nothing to do with preventing fraud. The purpose of these laws is to disenfranchise Democratic-leaning voters. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/269 "2013-08-01T11:10:58Z")
Way to cherry-pick exactly the half of the Carter Center stuff that criticises the pro-ID crowd without noting other parts like: “Democrats have tended to try to block voter ID legislation outright — instead of seeking to revise that legislation to promote accessibility.” “[O]pponents are sure that it will lead to voter suppression even though they haven’t been able — until Pennsylvania — to point to a single instance where a voter could not vote because of a lack of ID…” “The problem remains registration — not IDs — in reducing voting participation.” “In Florida, for example, the commission found 140,000 voters who had also registered in four other states — some 46,000 of them in New York City alone. When 1,700 of them registered for absentee ballots in the other state, no one investigated.” ETA: You opponents need to stop being obsessed with the “purpose” of the laws, and reflect on whether your opposition looks reasonable to the median voter. That’s called pragmatism. When you realise that it does not look reasonable, the next step is to decide how to appease that median voter while doing as much as possible to amend proposals so they include stuff you like too, just as the Carter Center said: “revise the legislation to promote accessibility”. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/270 "2013-08-01T12:34:56Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ETA: You opponents need to stop being obsessed with the “purpose” of the laws, Why would I do that if the goddamn purpose is to reduce votes for Democratic candidates? The purpose is to put up roadblocks in front of legal voters so they give up and decide not to vote anymore. I’m supposed to be OK with this, as long as I can tweak it a little? Fuck. That. Shit. You say that’s not the purpose? Bullshit. Step #1 in crafting the solution to a problem is understanding the size and scope of the problem. You step in front of the microphone and justify the fix by presenting your statistics. “In the last Presidential Election, up to x% of the vote, that’s xx Thousand votes, may have been cast improperly, and MY legislation will stop those votes from happening.” We don’t have this. Why? It’s certainly NOT because it’s impossible to gather the data, Hentor shows just how easy it is to at least get a sense of the scope of the problem. But no Republican has done such a study, and referenced the results of that study to justify the legislation. Why? Because you and I both know that he’ll be up there in front of the microphone saying “In the last Presidential Election, up to 0.001% of the vote, that’s 0.1 Thousand votes, may have been cast improperly, and MY legislation will stop those votes from happening.” Instead, the quotes from leading Republicans are more like “Voter ID, which is going to allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania: done” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/271 "2013-08-01T14:52:21Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Even if there’s a problem, and I don’t think there’s a problem. but let’s say there is, > > … how is the solution to create an expensive bureaucracy which collects and stores personally identifying information? We already **have** that, but the information is in the databases of several different bureaucracies in different agencies and at different levels of government with no reliable overall system of coordination or cross-referencing. Hence, it is possible for a person to be registered to vote in more than one state at the same time without anybody catching on, etc. Well, except the NSA, but they stay out of all this. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/272 "2013-08-02T16:52:33Z")
At the end of the book, Hasen proposes his solutions: > [@](#): > > We need nonpartisan, professional election administration at the federal, state and local levels, with more power in the hands of the federal government than state government and power power in the hands of the states than the localities. Neutral election officials, whose allegiance is not to a political party or candidate but to a fair election system, should be the norm. > > \ > > “Let a thousand flowers bloom” should not be the model for how we run our elections. We should follow the path of other mature democracies. A nonpartisan election czar or panel of three should run our national elections, with political insulation and a long term of service. The czar should impose uniformity, competence, and discipline on the election process. > > If used on a national scale, the president would make the nomination subject to a two-thirds or three-fourths confirmation vote by both houses of Congress. The large supermajority requirement would ensure that the person picked is a consensus candidate who cannot be easily manipulated by political forces. The election czar (or committee) should have the power to impose uniform standards on federal elections. Ideally, a voter should be able to walk into any polling place, anywhere in the country, and see the same voting equipment and the same ballot format. Election boards with balanced representation from both parties should have the power to monitor operations conducted by the nonpartisan official, with ample protection for either party to call for grand jury investigations if there are allegations of partisanship or incompetence. > > \ > > There should be uniform standards for how to deal with absentee ballots and provisional ballots. Election laws should be updated so that the rules are clear and established in advance. States should conduct periodic election law audits to ensure that laws are up to date, clear, and match current voting technology. Uniformity not only minimizes the grounds for a potential postelection contest but benefits all voters by ensuring a fair process. > > The registration rolls should be uniform as well. The federal government should be in the business of registering all voters, paying all costs associated with registration and voter verification. Registration should begin when someone graduates from high school (or drops out), and voter registration should follow citizens wherever they go with a unique voter identification number (which would differ from a Social Security number). The government should provide a voter identification card to each voter, but voters lacking identification would have the choice of using a thumprint or other means too verify their identity. > > Votging machine hardware and software should have government approval. The source code and hardware should undergo rigtorous independent testing and full disclosure to government officials before rollout and implementation. Manufacturers should not be able to frustrate efforts to improve security by claiming that the source code is proprietary. > > Forget everything you just read. None of it is going to happen. Despite the Florida debacle, states have not moved toward greater non-partisan election administration. Florida did get rid of its partisan elected secretary of state. But now the position is appointed by the governor, without the supermajority confirmation requirement that would keep the office apolitical. Neither Democrats nor Republicans see much benefit in giving up the chance to have one of their own as the state’s chief election officer. > > More generally, the Voting Wars have shown the parties the virtue of manipulating election rules for their advantage. The parties have a vested interest in keeping some partisan control. And local election officials fight for power against state officials, while both fight against federal control. There’s no strong lobby for change. The window for change following 2000 closed quickly with the half-measure of the Help America Vote Act. > > Nor is there support for mandatory, government-paid national voter registration with a voter identification – much less with biometric information like a fingerprint. When I first proposed such a system, in 2005, I managed the nearly impossible feat of uniting the two political parties around an idea. Unfortunately, they were united in opposition. Republicans oppose federal control, oppose another government program, and oppose government control on principle. Democrats oppose voter identification requirements, even if the government pays for it and goes out and registers voters, even though a large majority of the public supports such identification. Civil libertarians don’t like the government having your thumbprint. Barring a much worse meltdown than 2000, nationalizing our elections won’t happen in our lifetime. Is he right? Is there nothing We the People can do to override both parties’ vested interests? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/273 "2013-08-03T00:34:34Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Why would I do that if the goddamn purpose is to reduce votes for Democratic candidates? The purpose is to put up roadblocks in front of legal voters so they give up and decide not to vote anymore. I’m supposed to be OK with this, as long as I can tweak it a little? Fuck. That. Shit. > > You say that’s not the purpose? Bullshit. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Show me where I said that was not the purpose?? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/274 "2013-08-03T03:19:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We already **have** that, but the information is in the databases of several different bureaucracies in different agencies and at different levels of government with no reliable overall system of coordination or cross-referencing. Hence, it is possible for a person to be registered to vote in more than one state at the same time without anybody catching on, etc. Well, except the NSA, but they stay out of all this. So far as I know . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/275 "2013-08-03T15:17:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, of course. Short of some kind of universal mechanically-assisted telepathy where you vote via the cell-modem implant in your skull, there is no conceivable method of conducting elections that does not require **some** kind of effort on the part of the voter. > > Of course. > > WTF is your **point?!** That is absolutely and completely irrelevant to the obvious and indisputable democratic principle that the state should **minimize** the burden of voting in all ways possible and consistent with ballot-integrity. Will you answer this, **Bricker?** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/276 "2013-08-06T15:44:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, of course. Short of some kind of universal mechanically-assisted telepathy where you vote via the cell-modem implant in your skull, there is no conceivable method of conducting elections that does not require **some** kind of effort on the part of the voter. > > Of course. > > WTF is your **point?!** That is absolutely and completely irrelevant to the obvious and indisputable democratic principle that the state should **minimize** the burden of voting in all ways possible and consistent with ballot-integrity. Will you answer this, **Bricker?** I know you’re posting in GD today. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/277 "2013-08-06T15:55:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, of course. Short of some kind of universal mechanically-assisted telepathy where you vote via the cell-modem implant in your skull, there is no conceivable method of conducting elections that does not require **some** kind of effort on the part of the voter. > > Of course. > > WTF is your **point?!** That is absolutely and completely irrelevant to the obvious and indisputable democratic principle that the state should **minimize** the burden of voting in all ways possible and consistent with ballot-integrity. In all ways _possible_? No. It’s _possible_ to mobilize the armed forces and have them serve as shuttle bus drivers to transport voters to the polling stations. There should certainly be a goal of minimizing the burden of voting to some degree, but that goal must be balanced with the cost of the measures undertaken. The question then becomes – and indeed always has been: where do you draw the line? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/278 "2013-08-06T15:56:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Will you answer this, **Bricker?** I know you’re posting in GD today. You can always PM me if I’m missing a call for a response. That’s a more certain method than hoping I see a bumped thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/279 "2013-08-06T16:15:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In all ways _possible_? No. It’s _possible_ to mobilize the armed forces and have them serve as shuttle bus drivers to transport voters to the polling stations. > > There should certainly be a goal of minimizing the burden of voting to some degree, but that goal must be balanced with the cost of the measures undertaken. > > The question then becomes – and indeed always has been: where do you draw the line? I’d say, about where Hasen draws it; see post #272. Any objections? At least now, you recognize the value of reducing the burden of voting – something you have in the past explicitly rejected. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/280 "2013-08-06T16:16:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You can always PM me if I’m missing a call for a response. That’s a more certain method than hoping I see a bumped thread. Actually, I never look in my PM box and tend to forget it exists. I can’t be the only one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813.md?page=15)