# The most important thing you need to know about the voter ID issue . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813 "2013-07-29T14:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/121 "2013-07-30T05:54:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I know, I know…but if someone is a suspect in a crime and has never had any kind of ID, what do the police do with that? Pretty much whatever they want. Not that I have a problem with that. I have zero respect for homeschoolers or for any sort who think they have a right to be invisible to the government, which they don’t. One of my early law cases was for a midwifery practice. Nothing to do with the issue at issue (it had to do with midwife-licensing), but I recall that the head of the center once told me that quite a few of their clients were strangely creepy people who ducked out before the birth-certificate could be filled out, and who appeared to have chosen a midwife instead of a hospital just because it would make that easier. They wanted, for religious reasons most likely, to avoid giving Caesar any record of their or their child’s existence. Like the “Blanks” in _Max Headroom._ Well, fuck 'em lubeless forever, they’re not cool like Blank Reg, they were only crippling their poor child’s future. May all the arrows in their Quiverfull be shot **at** them with painful effect. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/122 "2013-07-30T06:00:18Z")
N.B.: Caesar is better than Christ. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/123 "2013-07-30T06:05:50Z")
And Judas is better than Caesar. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/124 "2013-07-30T15:02:39Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > So far from what I’ve read, the number of voters who vote fraudulently is outnumbered by the eligible voters with no photo ID by something like 1000:1. It’s a lot less than that. One example was cited in post #24. The _alleged_ fraudulent voting amounted to less than 1 in 5,000in that case (note this is how much was being used to scare people). In the end the investigation was only left with five unresolved votes that _might_ have been fraudulent (out of 1,365,480 votes cast). That is what? 3.66 fraudulent votes per 1 million (or about 1 per 273,000)? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/125 "2013-07-30T15:06:21Z")
I looked up the references that my opinion was based on, and I think it is largely on this: [Cheating rarely seen at polls](http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Cheating-rarely-seen-at-polls-3432801.php#page-1) > [@](#): > > Texas has suffered from “multiple cases of voter fraud,” Gov. Rick Perry said in a recent FOX News interview, though the attorney general handled just 20 allegations of election law violations in the 2008 and 2010 elections. Most involved mail-in ballot or campaign finance violations, electioneering too close to a polling place or a voter blocked by an election worker. > > … > > “However, what every investigation has proven is that the kind of fraud voter ID laws would address — voter impersonation — doesn’t really exist,” Ellis said. “In fact, there are more UFO and Bigfoot sightings than documented cases of voter impersonation.” > > … > > As many as 795,955 registered voters in Texas do not have a Texas driver’s license, and insistence that they obtain a DPS ID card to vote could be problematic in some 70 Texas counties and inner cities that lack a DPS driver’s license office. So far less than 20 cases of voting fraud that could be addressed by voter-ID laws, in two elections, contrasted with 800,000 registered voters with no drivers license, and a significant chunk of those with no photo ID at all. Are these figures in dispute? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/126 "2013-07-30T15:13:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It’s a lot less than that. Missed the edit. Read what you were stating wrong. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/127 "2013-07-30T16:31:00Z")
It is certain that voter fraud in the sense of an impersonator or legally ineligible person casting a ballot is a nonproblem, and the rare instances where it happens are simply noise in the signal, their effect on the outcome unpredictable, and certainly those votes are not **sought** by either party despite conspiracy theories to the contrary, and requiring voter ID would fix nothing that’s broke. But I admit it is hard to answer the arguments that presenting ID when you vote just **seems** right, is done in many countries, you have to present ID to do a lot of other things so what’s the big deal, etc., etc. But the biggest problem with this nonissue is that it all diverts attention from what’s **really** wrong with the American electoral system – hyperfederalization, partisan adminstration, incompetent administration, irregularity of procedures and practices, underfunding and obsolete equipment, etc., etc. etc. The world’s oldest existing republic after Switzlerland and San Marino should be able to do all of this right by now! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/128 "2013-07-30T16:47:49Z")
While regrettably the current conservative program of voter suppression will probably work for them, it’s going to bite them in the ass in the long run. I order to enact their program, they have to convince the public that voter fraud and illegitimate elections are huge issues in order to justify the need for things like voter ID laws. And it seems to be working and it will most likely tilt the next couple of elections in the conservatives’ favor (which is after all the real goal here). The problem for conservatives, as is so often the case, will be the backlash when the public sees the consequences of the conservative agenda in action. In this case, it’s going to be thousands of legitimate voters not voting. And having made a huge issue in the public mind over a few dozen possible voter problems, several thousand actual voter problems will be seen as a massive crisis. The Democrats will finally rally, make the obvious comparisons to Jim Crow voting laws, and get the current crop of voting laws overturned. Of course by that time, the conservatives will already be working on their next plan. They usually have about a decade lead on their schemes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/129 "2013-07-30T16:49:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It is certain that voter fraud in the sense of an impersonator or legally ineligible person casting a ballot is a nonproblem, and the rare instances where it happens are simply noise in the signal, their effect on the outcome unpredictable, and certainly those votes are not **sought** by either party despite conspiracy theories to the contrary, and requiring voter ID would fix nothing that’s broke. > > But I admit it is hard to answer the arguments that presenting ID when you vote just **seems** right, is done in many countries, you have to present ID to do a lot of other things so what’s the big deal, etc., etc. > > But the biggest problem with this nonissue is that it all diverts attention from what’s **really** wrong with the American electoral system – hyperfederalization, partisan adminstration, incompetent administration, irregularity of procedures and practices, underfunding and obsolete equipment, etc., etc. etc. The world’s oldest existing republic after Switzlerland and San Marino should be able to do all of this right by now! :mad: I applaud this post. I think you’ve honestly admitted the difficulties in arguing against Voter ID, and at the same time pointed out that the real issues go well beyond ID demands to some very systemic problems in conducting elections. Thanks for a concise and accurate statement of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/130 "2013-07-30T17:33:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Of course by that time, the conservatives will already be working on their next plan. They usually have about a decade lead on their schemes. You credit them with great forward-thinking cleverness. Actually, however, in many tactical and strategic respects, [their thinking seems to have a ten-year **lag.**](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/can-the-republicans-be-saved-from-obsolescence.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/131 "2013-07-30T17:34:33Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That is what? 3.66 fraudulent votes per 1 million (or about 1 per 273,000)? In recent years, there has been a sign in my bank prohibiting customers from wearing hats, hoods, or sunglasses. Before this went into effect, what proportion of customers wearing the aforementioned items were bank robbers, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/132 "2013-07-30T17:44:45Z")
Well you veteran fighters of ignorance are really something. You used good statistical analysis to minimize how much voter fraud might exist because of the lack of voter IDs. You have successfully held up the belief that the only reason we are getting voter ID laws is because the bad guys want it as it surely will provide fewer votes for the good guys. The fact is that 74% of Americans favor voter ID laws, as stated previously and not challenged. Not to mention the use of the mysterious disenfranchised voter who will stop voting because they live there lives without any sort of ID. They might exist, but I don’t see any proof in this thread. You successfully fought ignorance with ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/133 "2013-07-30T17:48:58Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Well you veteran fighters of ignorance are really something. > > You used good statistical analysis to minimize how much voter fraud might exist because of the lack of voter IDs. > > You have successfully held up the belief that the only reason we are getting voter ID laws is because the bad guys want it as it surely will provide fewer votes for the good guys. The fact is that 74% of Americans favor voter ID laws, as stated previously and not challenged. > > Not to mention the use of the mysterious disenfranchised voter who will stop voting because they live there lives without any sort of ID. They might exist, but I don’t see any proof in this thread. > > You successfully fought ignorance with ignorance. I suggest you go through the thread again-but this time, actually read it. Everything you claim was glossed over has been covered extensively. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/134 "2013-07-30T17:49:35Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > In recent years, there has been a sign in my bank prohibiting customers from wearing hats, hoods, or sunglasses. Before this went into effect, what proportion of customers wearing the aforementioned items were bank robbers, I wonder? That might be a useful analogy if: 1. There were some problem with our voting system that the voter-ID laws actually addressed, and 2. The number of eligible voters prevented from voting by the voter-ID laws was small. However, since neither of those seems to be true, what was your point? Is there any problem that voter-ID laws would actually correct? Or even help with? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/135 "2013-07-30T18:26:27Z")
You are saying there is a large nmber of people without ID? Who? Where? And why don’t they have it for all the other reasons it is a necessary part of modern life? ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/136 "2013-07-30T18:38:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I suggest you go through the thread again-but this time, actually read it. Everything you claim was glossed over has been covered extensively. I don’t see any statistics on disenfranchised voters. Which is the only thing that I claim as glossed over. I see a good analysis on voter fraud etc, but the disenfranchised voters claim has gotten a pass. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/137 "2013-07-30T18:48:48Z")
One more time, with scant hope of success. It’s not so much about disenfranchising as it is about discouraging. Make voting more difficult, more tiresome and tedious, and hope to winnow away voters who are not determined to vote. With the hope that this will have some effect on the Dem voter turnout. With the further hope that discouraging some 1, 2, or 3% of those voters will sway a close election. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/138 "2013-07-30T18:55:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You are saying there is a large nmber of people without ID? Who? Where? And why don’t they have it for all the other reasons it is a necessary part of modern life? > [@TommyzNR](#): > > I don’t see any statistics on disenfranchised voters. Which is the only thing that I claim as glossed over. > > I see a good analysis on voter fraud etc, but the disenfranchised voters claim has gotten a pass. It has been covered but here are some more stats. > [@](#): > > "I get that all the time: ‘What’s the big deal? I just got my driver’s license renewed, it took like five seconds,’ " says Larry Norden, acting director of the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University, which opposes these laws. “Frankly, that’s why these laws have been so successful, because 89 percent of the population does have photo IDs.” > > That leaves another 3.2 million Americans who don’t possess a government-issued picture ID, according to a [recent study co-authored by Norden](http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/voting_law_changes_in_2012). > > \ > > By all estimates, those least likely to have a government-issued photo ID fall into one of four categories: the elderly, minorities, the poor and young adults aged 18 to 24. The Brennan Center estimates that 18 percent of all seniors and 25 percent of African-Americans don’t have picture IDs. > > SOURCE: [Why New Photo ID Laws Mean Some Won't Vote : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote) So, roughly 11% of the population does not have a photo ID. That is significant. In the realm of disenfranchisement this is not the sole means being attempted either. Get a few percent here, a few percent there and you can seriously sway election results. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/139 "2013-07-30T19:08:41Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > I don’t see any statistics on disenfranchised voters. After three pages of [this thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=697299) apparently **nobody** has any. There have not even been any studies, that anyone has heard of, about what effect voter-ID laws had in any way on the 2012 elections. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813/140 "2013-07-30T19:22:44Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > You have successfully held up the belief that the only reason we are getting voter ID laws is because the bad guys want it as it surely will provide fewer votes for the good guys. Substitute “Dems” and “Pubs” for “good guys” and “bad guys” respectively in that sentence, and that is certainly true. Hasen devotes a whole chapter to “The Fraudulent Fraud Squad.” **Nothing** coming from the Pub side on that issue in the past decade has been honest. Except, perhaps, for this rare moment of candor: > [@](#): > > What really motivates the Fraudulent Fraud Squad? _[American Spectator_ journalist Matthew] Vadum, one of the squad’s newest members, inadvertently revealed what underlay his attack on ACORN and related groups. Registering the poor to vote, he contended, is “un-American,” like “giving burglary tools to criminals.” It is profoundly anti-social and un-American to empower nonproductive segments of the population to destroy the country – which is exactly why Barack Obama zealously supports registering welfare recipients to vote. > > In other words, we should once again make wealth a condition of voting. Apparently this is no longer the kind of odious idea one should keep to oneself. Hasen’s not making that up, either. [Vadum’s article.](http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/09/registering_the_poor_to_vote_is_un-american.html) > [@TommyzNR](#): > > The fact is that 74% of Americans favor voter ID laws, as stated previously and not challenged. And not in any way relevant to any of the above. Probably about 50% of Americans favor voter ID laws for partisan reasons, perhaps even for Vadum’s worse-than-that reasons, and the other 24% for the reasons I mentioned in post #127, i.e., it just **seems** right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-important-thing-you-need-to-know-about-the-voter-id-issue/664813.md?page=8)