# The most inherant;ly cruel race? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2001, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234 "2001-01-29T07:02:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2001, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/81 "2001-02-04T15:55:44Z")
Dear Mr. Adventurious82: Another poster stated that the actions of the lobster you described might be attributable to morbid nerve activity, as when a chicken’s head is cut off but the body continues to act. You replied, “Brownian motion” and attempted to refute him. **Brownian motion** is the movement of microscopic particles that are in suspension in a liquid or gas due to the collision of molecules in the fluid surrounding them. What do you suppose that has to do with morbid nerve activity? (Hint: Nothing. You’re apparently trying to appear smarter than you are.) > [@](#): > > Here we kill shellfish quickly. They go from a cold water bath, usually iced,into vigorously boiling water. Lobsters often live in water which is near freezing. What makes you think an ice water bath has the slightest effect on them? > [@](#): > > I recall when Vietnam was called Siam and a great place to go. Can you specify when this was? (Hint: Never. You’re apparently trying to appear smarter than you are.) Siam is now known as Thailand, and was never part of Vietnam. > [@](#): > > Even then, while the people were varied in clothing styles, more similar to Indian, the building techniques and writing were similar to Chinese and Japanese. We have several posters who speak Vietnamese, Chinese and Japanese here. Chinese and Japanese aren’t evn like each other. So in what ways could Vietnamese possibly be similar to each other? (Hint: None. You’re apparently trying to appear smarter than you are.) > [@](#): > > BTW, why do you think scholars placed the ‘ese’ at the end of the names they gave these peoples? Could it be because they are all Asian? Similar names for similar people? No, it could be because of the way that new English words, particularly verbs and adjectives, are formed. Nouns and names that end in vowels are likely to receive the “-ese” suffix in their adjective form. By the way, can you please point out the “-ese” suffix in the following words: Thai, Cambodian, Khmer, Korean, Tibetan, Laotian, and Singaporean? (Hint: You can’t, because there isn’t one. You’re apparently trying to appear smarter than you are.) ---
**Author:** ![Pyrrho12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Pyrrho12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyrrho12)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2001, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/82 "2001-02-04T18:07:29Z")
_I had this reply mostly written, then my computer crashed. So now I’m writing it all out again._ > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Adventurious82 \* > **Pyrrho12 > You can ask me to take this to the PIT until you grow old with age, but I choose not to do so, finding the PIT to be nothing but a site for insults made by faceless people who know they are out of arms reach. In more than one ‘discussion’ there, the subject has crumbled into basically exchanged insults and wild accusations.** I don’t think you understand what I was saying. I didn’t reccomend moving this thread to the Pit. But if you want to insult other users or make racial slurs, the Pit is the place to do it. If you want other users to treat you with respect you should treat them with respect. If you do not want other users to treat you with respect… well, this still isn’t the proper place for name calling. If you absolutely must do that, put it in the forum designed for that purpose- the Pit. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Of course it seems to you that these incidents are moreso among Asians. You’re ignoring all evidence to the contrary. > > Cites please. I find no evidence to the contrary. Perhaps you need to brush up on your Asian studies, reading something besides travelogues. > \*\* Cites? That’s easy. In [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=57687) thread on the SDMB, you do just that. I don’t recall that any of the cites I have posted have been from travelogues, though the internet page you listed at the top of your own post _was_ from a travelogue… Nothing wrong with that, I just like irony. As for the documentation of the “half frying a living fish” story… Well, it’s only mentioned in passing on the page you mention, and the writer’s description of the dish itself doesn’t seem to necessarily be the same thing which you were describing earlier. It is not mentioned, for instance, that the fish is still alive when the diners start eating it. It seems that there is evidence that living fish are brought to a frying pan in China, though the exact nature of the recipe and the length of time the fish remains alive have not yet been confirmed. Incidentally, on the same page they mention: > [@](#): > > **Goose liver pate (France)** > I include this not because it is an unusual item, but to pre-empt any impressions that Asians have a monopoly on food that is cruel to animals Maybe he should have made that disclaimer earlier… In any case, this should count as evidence that cruel culinary practices towards animals are still carried out in the West. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > In what specific instance did the Chinese ignore the Geneva Convention? > > Well, try their treatment of Japanese prisoners during WW2, then their treatment of prisoners during the Korean and Vietnamese wars._{much info snipped - scroll up}_ > \*\* Interesting list of atrocities. An alternate version of China’s participation in both wars can be found [here](http://centurychina.com/history/faq5.shtml#24). I’m not sure this is a particularly good source but if someone familiar with British military history could verify the quotes it would certainly disprove many of the claims you’ve been making about PoWs. > [@](#): > > **People gripe about land mines, which are a weapon of war, used by all nations but the Vietcong developed lethal traps that were just as deadly** Not all nations use land mines. Canada doesn’t. Are you aware of the international land mine treaty? Curiously, the United States is one of the few countries which have refused to sign the treaty. You can read a CBC News story about that [here](http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?category=World&story=/news/1999/03/01/mine990301). Incidentally, I would think that if the vietnamese developed low-tech traps which were equivalent to landmines, that would be evidence of their cleverness rather than cruelty. > [@](#): > > **They also killed their own villagers who were caught using American medical supplies or who were eating American rations to keep from starving.** Have any evidence for that claim? If so, do you know what the reason was for killing people who posessed American supplies? > [@](#): > > **The Koreans and Vietnamese, it is suspected, probably killed about as many of their own people as Allied forces did.** I hate to point this out, but both conflicts mentioned were _civil wars_. Did you know that during the American civil war, there were actually military leaders who ordered their troops to attack other American units? And that almost all of the Americans who died in that conflict were killed by American soldiers? > [@](#): > > **Haven’t watched Iron Chef much have you?** It’s not on the air in Korea. Think this could imply something about American viewing prefrences? > [@](#): > > **Brownian motion. I doubt it.** Brownian motion? Where’d you get that idea? I was going to call you to task on this one, but **pldennison** beat me to it. In any event, from the first time I wrote this message, [here](http://poplaracre.com/SSButcheringChickens.html) is a description of the phenomenon I was describing in chickens. > [@](#): > > **Here we kill shellfish quickly. They go from a cold water bath, usually iced, into vigorously boiling water. Professionals from both the cooking and medical fields have agreed that the sudden shock kills them within seconds and it is probable that they feel little pain.** I was not aware of any serious medical inquiry into mollusk phenomenology. Care to enlighten me? Speaking of enlightenment, the folks at [Taylor Shellfish](http://www.taylorshellfish.com/handling.html) don’t seem to share your views on humane cooking. Care to comment? Also, at [Mollusk Mania](http://MolluskMania.virtualave.net/composure.html) they make some comments about the nervous systems of bivalves. Does anyone know if the rudimentary nervous system of these animals includes pain receptors? I recall having heard something once about this being the case, but I’m not sure. Can anyone help? > [@](#): > > \*\* > I don’t recall any American meal being made of an animal while it was still alive, nor Canadian, nor English – > \*\* Live oysters. See above link. Scallops are also consumed alive in my part of Canada. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Italians don’t chow on living pigs or stuff living fish with herbs and bake.\*\* Are you suggesting that “oriental” people actually do these things? That’s a new claim. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The French at least kill the snails before serving them. > \*\* Just thought I’d add some details as to how escargot is actually prepared. First, you need to starve the snails for several days. This empties their digestive system. Next, you plunge the little critters in boiling water. A recipe can be found [here](http://escargot.free.fr/eng/cooking.htm). So, it’s true that the French don’t eat the snails while they are still alive. They just starve them for a while then throw them into boiling water with neither ice nor cognac to dull the pain. > [@](#): > > **The differences in the cultures are minor, the similarities are major,** But, you can’t use this statement to justify your position that the differences between Asian countries and ethnic groups are irrelevant. You are [begging the question](http://www.skepdic.com/begging.html). > [@](#): > > **the things I’ve stated have happened in all Asian cultures.** I explained in my earlier posting why this can’t be used to justify your lumping together of the “oriental race”. Do you understand why this is so? I could explain it again, if you did not understand the first time. > [@](#): > > **Until the intervention of communism, all major Asian cultures had rulers, kings,** Okay. I guess this is a similarity between all Asian countries… it’s pretty vague. It’s also a similarity between Asian cultures and European ones. Democratic and communist governments have “rulers” in the form of presidents and chairpersons. > [@](#): > > \*\* all had similar dietary habits,\*\* Which were? I find this claim hard to believe, especially considering the number of culinary traditions in China alone. > [@](#): > > **all had similarities in the languages,** Not according to [this](http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/families/) page. There are a multitude of linguistic families in Asia, many of which overlap into Europe and Africa. So, it is quite possible that an Asian language will be more closely related to a European language than another one in Asia. > [@](#): > > **in the arts, the construction techniques,** Depends upon how vague you want to get. Sure there are similarities, but similarities exist between Asian art and European art as well. If you are trying to imply that individual Asian countries don’t have their own unique artistic and architectural traditions, then I’m afraid that you haven’t studied this aspect of Asia very well at all. > [@](#): > > **religion** Let’s see… there’s Hinduism, which is found mainly in India (see [here](http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,108344+36+105952,00.html)). There’s Shinto, which is similarly practiced only among the Japanese ([here](http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/6/0,5716,108166+1+105864,00.html). There’s Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity, along with the philosophies of Confucionism and Taoism. Each of these religions, of course, has it’s own different denomonations. And then there are the indigenous faiths found in many countries throughout Asia… each of these has its own practices and superstitions as well. Personally, I’d be inclided to say that Asia has a much wider range of religious beliefs than exist in “caucasian” countries. If you disagree with this assessment, please explain why… > [@](#): > > **and writing.** Are you talking about calligraphy or literature? If calligraphy, it may be your opinion that Chinese writing looks like Japanese writing like Korean writing, but anyone actually familiar with these styles will know that this simply isn’t the case. Incidentally, I’ve met Koreans who on occasion have mistaken arabic characters for roman ones. If you’re talking about literature… If you are drawing your info from only four countries, two of which are the same one and one of which didn’t have a written language for most of its history, then I’d have to say that you are generalizing from far too small a sample set. > [@](#): > > **I recall when Vietnam was called Siam and a great place to go.** I was going to call you on this as well, but once again **pldennison** beat me to it. BTW, **pldennison** , there is no need to make speculation about **Adventurious** ’s mental capacity. It is sufficient to point out that he is wrong. > [@](#): > > \*\*BTW, why do you think scholars placed the ‘ese’ at the end of the names they gave these peoples? Could it be because they are all Asian? Similar names for similar people? \*\* This makes no sense at all. First of all, the similarity of words in the English language does not imply that all Asian cultures are the same. If that were true, then a cat would be related to a bat which would be related to a gnat. Secondly, knowing nothing about the etymology of those words, you’re making an argument from ignorance. And as **pldennison** pointed out, only some of those names end in ‘ese’, not all, so your argument is not even internally consistent. > [@](#): > > \*\* > There are many articles concerning the emotional/mental problems of Japanese men due to their cruel work ethic which confines many to a position of low status in their companies, which, for them, is humiliating. > > Dig them up yourself. I read 'em. They’re available. > \*\* Come on now. It’s hardly honest to expect other people to do your research for you. These are your claims; if you have no evidence to support them, be honest and say so. But don’t expect us to believe anything you can’t back up with evidence. That being said, I did do some looking for evidence for you. My first stop was [MedLine](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/), where a search of articles related to mental health in Japan turned up nothing relevant. I seem to recall hearing something about rising stress levels in Japan myself, but personally I suspect the media may have made the story more interesting than it actually was. In any event, neither MedLine nor Google provided the articles you requested I look for. > [@](#): > > **I could understand the Nazis, the Russians, the current situations in Africa, but have wondered about the Asians. Their history in such acts is not sporadic, but consistent.** You made an error in the preceding paragraph. Instead of “the Nazis, the Russians”, shouldn’t you have said “the caucasians”? After all, you did want this to be a discussion about “race”. That being said, as another poster mentioned the “caucasians” are still doing cruel things to each other in the former Yugoslavia, so I can’t see how you can claim that their cruelty is sporadic. It’s going on right now. I think you did get one thing right in the above paragraph, though- you don’t understand Asians. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2001, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/83 "2001-02-04T19:34:46Z")
Well, I guess that’s that. If you won’t respond to my questions, even after I put them in bold so they’re easier to see, there’s not much point continuing. You’re refusal to even consider the fact that people who look alike _to you_ might not _be_ alike appears on the surface to be blatant racism. There may be another explanation, of course, but it’s getting hard to figure out what that might be. > [@](#): > > In the Asian race we have a curious contradiction: holy monks practicing peace and humility eventually developing the first of the very lethal martial arts, The Pankratians of ancient Greece were asians? I didn’t know they were monks, either. > [@](#): > > basing many moves on gentle things of nature. (Yes, I know why they developed the defensive arts for protection.) No, the first martial arts were adapted from military weapon techniques. The basing stuff on animals and philosophy came later. And what’s gentle about a tiger, a praying mantis, or a fighting cock? > [@](#): > > Then the wide spread martial arts philosophy, later breaking down into several forms, of inner peace, self defense but utterly savage mauling and killing when necessary. That’s not **quite** how it works, 70’s kung fu movies aside. The philosophies came first, martial arts adapted them, not the other way around. And not all martial arts contain “utterly savage mauling and maiming,” just the Korean ones. (JOKE, JOKE!! just a bit of old karate/tae kwan do rivalry popping up. 🙂 ) > [@](#): > > It’s kind of like your anger management shrink turning out to be a member of the bloodiest American biker gang. Not really. Even if your original argument was valid, which it isn’t, it’s still wrong. An anger management theripist who has had little experience with anger is going to be of minimal value. > [@](#): > > The casual cruelty can be seen in the Japanese work ethic. Rigorously structured, they work until they die. They ‘must’ work. All for the company. Nothing for the worker. All over Japan, work is paramount, with everything structured towards the individual worker being part of the whole, with pressures enough to cause many to never take vacations or to suicide if they get fired. They have a regulated cast system striating levels of workers, the lowest of whom virtually have to grovel and face humiliation to attempt to climb the ladder. Upper level management pushes lower levels with ruthless force to advance their careers. More 80s era Japan bashing. Japanese corperate culture is different from US, (Actually, it’s much closer to the German corprate system, which I’m pretty sure it was based on) but that hardly makes it evil. It’s too complicated to get into here, and I’m not an expert, but the main difference is that while greater loyalty is expected from Japanese employees than American, they also have more security, and the company has a greater responsiblity to take care of them. You may not agree with this, but if its a sign of cruelty, it’s your going to have to condemn Germany, Norway, and Finland, as well. Do you have anything to base this “grovel and face humiliation” on, besides 80s corprate propaganda? > [@](#): > > The Japanese worker is a drone in a hive of bees with little to protect him or give him rights. You know, of course, that Japanese companies as a whole take much better care of their workers than US companies do? But I suppose that’s just so they can squeeze the last bit of effort out of them, and couldn’t possibly have any other explanation. > [@](#): > > Until the intervention of communism, all major Asian cultures had rulers, kings, all had similar dietary habits, all had similarities in the languages, in the arts, the construction techniques, religion and writing. I Uh, I hate to break this too you, but all european cultures have similarties in language, the arts, construction techniques, religion, and writing, and they all had rulers and kings. It’s called cultural exchange, and I thought you said it was a positive thing. And at this point, I frankly doubt you have any idea what you’re talking about. Aside from the fact that rices, as opposed to wheats, were one of the staples of diet, do you know _anything_ about the traditional diets of any of the nations in question? (rice culture question, again, and I’d perticularly like to know how the traditional Tartar diet is similar to the traditional Thai diet) Do you know how many written alphabets Japanese has, and which one is based on Chinese? Or how many dialects of Chinese there are? How was the Tokugawa Shogunate similar to the Korean governemnt of the time? You are lumping half the world and well over a third of it’s peoples into one category, and then claiming all thier differences are “irrelivant.” > [@](#): > > BTW, why do you think scholars placed the ‘ese’ at the end of the names they gave these peoples? Could it be because they are all Asian? Similar names for similar people? Is this a joke? Does this mean the Germans, Austrians, Itialians, Mexicans, and Americans are similar, as are the British, the Spanish, and the Polish? And wouldn’t the Portugese fit in with the Chinese and the Taiwanese? (Hey, they have dark skin and eyes, too!) Phyrro12: I’m all man. With a bit of animal thrown in. 🙂 – “Hi-keba!” ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2001, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/84 "2001-02-04T19:39:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Adventurious82 \* > **Plus, in Baghdad, American forces stopped to allow native forces to ‘take’ the city, realizing that it was important for the occupants to see familiar faces arriving as heroes.** Whoah, when did Allied forces take Baghdad? ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2001, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/85 "2001-02-04T23:06:10Z")
Just a few points, as the others seem to have already gotten most of them. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Adventurious82_ > **No, not all Asians do these things, but enough do for it to draw my attention. Watch Japan. Their work ethic is going to cause them problems within the next few years and one will see even more ‘crazy’ TV programs emerge.** America doesn’t have crazy TV programs with people doing stupid, embarrassing, and sometimes potentially dangerous things? _Survivor_ is a good example, as is _Road Rules_. I don’t usually watch the latter, but I can remember seeing the participants having to cliff-dive for their money. In addition, noone is _forced_ to be on these shows, everyone is a willing participant. I would imagine the same is true in Japan as well. > [@](#): > > \*\*I mean, look at all of the old movies and current anime. The subject: great warriors who are normally gentle and peaceful, surrounded by things of beauty, who, instantly can become ruthless killing machines and after slaughtering countless numbers of the enemy, go back to writing poetry. \*\* The same concepts can be found in many of the films featuring Arnold Schwartzenegger, Jean-Claude Van Damme, and Steven Seagal. > [@](#): > > \*\*Had America entered Desert Storm shortly after WW2, say, in the 1960s, the troops would not have stopped short of getting Sadaam. Changes over the years have made the military and political leaders respect the feelings of the nations they traveled over and helped. To chase Sadaam into his nation would have insulted the Islamic community. Plus, in Baghdad, American forces stopped to allow native forces to ‘take’ the city, realizing that it was important for the occupants to see familiar faces arriving as heroes. > \*\* We never took the city or overthrew Saddam for a good reason - he provides a check against Iran. Without a reasonably strong Iraq, the US leaders felt that Iran could become too powerful in the Middle East, and they hate America even more than Hussein does. It wasn’t empathy, it was common sense. You’ve also reminded me of something. How do you explain the Taliban in Afghanistan? They are extremely cruel to women. I look forward to your explanations of this, as well to the many points and questions in my last post which you have yet to respond to. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/86 "2001-02-05T02:04:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pyrrho12 > > > [@](#): > > > > **BUT, I have to admit that these kinds of stories of animals eaten while still alive seem to come mostly (perhaps almost exclusively) from Asia.** > > This is one of the reasons why cites are so important. They would help to verify the accuracy of the claims being made in this thread. > > If **Adventurious** gained his knowledge about “oriental” dietary practices from hearsay, or chain emails, or from animal rights organizations which don’t even operate on the Asian continent, then the veracity of said descriptions would be thrown into doubt. It may not be that these things happen in Asia, it may just be that Asia is currently the target of choice for those who want to do some finger-pointing. > > If, on the other hand, his information was gained from the mainstream media, anthropological studies, or animal rights groups which actually do have a presence in Asia, then his descriptions would look far more likely. The fact that one of his cites on the “monkey brains” issue was a Beijing newspaper caused me to rethink my opinion that the story was patently false. > > > [@](#): > > > > **Also…regarding lumping a bunch of Asian cultures together: of course Asian cultures are all different, but what about lumping the Americas and Europe into “Western culture?” I feel that if completely deny the validity of one you have to deny the validity of the other.** > > Not necessarily. It’s not as though “Western Culture” and “Asian Culture” are polar opposites whose very definition hinges upon the existence of the other. It would be quite possible, IMHO, for one to exist without the other. > \*\* Just to clarify…the first of my above points was meant to state that I could see how a person living in the U.S. with minimal experience of Asian culture might leap to the conclusions that Adven has. Right or wrong, a person who depends on the American media to bring him information about Asia would certainly have heard a lot about strange and “cruel” Asian culinary practices. I do not by any means wish to give the impression that I agree with Adven, only that I can see where he has gotten his mistaken notion. As for East vs. West…I did not mean to suggest that one could not exist without the other. I was giving the two as random examples of overly generalized “cultures,” not as examples of “opposites.” I am living in Japan and I have attended a few “Multicultural Seminars” where the speaker says they intend to speak about “other” cultures and then spend all their time talking about Western culture, as though it encompasses everything outside of Japan. To make matters worse, to them, “Western Culture” usually just means “American Culture.” I know your pain. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/87 "2001-02-05T02:08:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Adventurious82 \* > It’s like saying that all blacks are prone to sickle cell anemia. From the information I’ve gathered over the years, breakdown into various groups doe not seem to apply. The only thing which seems to affect my original view/theory is the level of public education and that has to be accompanied by two influences: A: length of time the public has had easy access to major sources of information and, B: the amount of traditional beliefs/views which have changed because of A. > > Children can/are naturally cruel towards each other and things until they learn through experience and/or outside sources that such an attitude is wrong. Some quickly realize that doing certain things is not good, their emotional/ego systems maturing to the extent that empathy develops. Some do not. Some just learn to avoid disclosing certain urges/lack of empathy to others when they see that others do not accept them. Psychiatrists have noted for the last several decades that such people who fail to empathize with the pain of lessor creatures mature failing to fully realize empathy for other people. (CEO’s of some major companies fit this bill nicely 🙂 , along with those who tend to commit violent crime. Take heart, ignorance! Adven graciously carries the White Man’s Burden ---
**Author:** ![kiffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/d78d45/32.png) [@kiffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kiffa)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/88 "2001-02-05T03:15:57Z")
:bows graciously to Kyomara: ---
**Author:** ![Adventurious82](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e495f1/32.png) [@Adventurious82](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Adventurious82)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/89 "2001-02-05T05:59:46Z")
Read away to your hearts content.[http://www.jacksonville.net/~rgrokett/POW/index.htm](http://www.jacksonville.net/~rgrokett/POW/index.htm) Batann death martch. First hand account. [http://www.vikingphoenix.com/public/rongstad/military/pow/pwcmps-2.htm](http://www.vikingphoenix.com/public/rongstad/military/pow/pwcmps-2.htm) Japanese POW camps. Note the difference in death rates of American prisoners in Nazi hands and then Japanese hands. [http://www.angelstation.com/swillner/](http://www.angelstation.com/swillner/) First hand from a River Kwai survivor. [http://www.beverevivis.com/books/lestweforget/](http://www.beverevivis.com/books/lestweforget/) Survivor of the Burma Railway – Japanese forced labor. [http://www.prisonerofwar.com/](http://www.prisonerofwar.com/) Realy good site re: Batann POWs, from an American Military doctor who was a prisoner. [http://www2.netdoor.com/~allardma/powcamp2.html](http://www2.netdoor.com/~allardma/powcamp2.html) American POW camp in the States. Hmmm, those Germans look mighty well fed. [http://www.prisonerofwar.net/](http://www.prisonerofwar.net/)[/url "_The guards began their usual ritual. They yelled at him in Japanese and started to hit him with their fists and a metal rod, and when he slumped down, they kicked him with their boots._ Survivor account. [http://www.kwanah.com/txmilmus/lostbattalion/nagatomo.htm](http://www.kwanah.com/txmilmus/lostbattalion/nagatomo.htm) “A Thousand Cups of Rice: Building the Death Railway” [http://www.british-forces.com/world\_war2/otherfiles/pows.html](http://www.british-forces.com/world_war2/otherfiles/pows.html) British account of German VS Japanese POW camps. BIG difference. [http://www2.memlane.com/djcarter/slideshow/default.htm](http://www2.memlane.com/djcarter/slideshow/default.htm) Cool slideshow about POW camps in Canada. The prisoners look to be in real good health to me. [http://www.frankel-y.com/tape007.htm](http://www.frankel-y.com/tape007.htm) Interesting account of captured Japanese in WW2 by Americans. [http://trackstar.hprtec.org/main/track\_frames.php3?track\_id=1183](http://trackstar.hprtec.org/main/track_frames.php3?track_id=1183) Excellent listing and study of POW camps on American soil in WW2. [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/issues95/jun95/pow\_0695.html](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/issues95/jun95/pow_0695.html) Will you believe an artical in the respectable Smithsonian Magazine?? [http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/](http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/) Japanese war crimes in China. [http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwch1.htm](http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwch1.htm) Congressional record of American War Crimes in Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/90 "2001-02-05T08:33:43Z")
OK, I’ve now read through this whole thread and I have to note that this nightmare is looking more and more like a **Peace** thread. **Adventurious82** before anyone can go any way towards enlightening you more, or you them, you really need to start defining what is under discussion. So far you have displayed a tendency to simply label as ‘irrelevant’ anything that suggests that you are confusing issues, facts and assertions. No one that I can see is making these suggestions to be nasty/ They are just doing it so we can debate **a** subject rather than the dozen or so parallel subjects you have going at the moment. To that end can you please clarify a few points: 1. Have you read **Collounsbury** ’s links, and if so could you please enlighten us on those threads why you reject the concept of race being an artificial classification system? Otherwise this is just going to turn into another race thread, and that really has been done to death. 2. What is your definition of an ‘Oriental’ so we can at least rule out some groups? 3. What is your definition of cruelty? 4. Do you have any actual figures, stats, literature reviews etc. demonstrating that Orientals are more or less likely to commit acts of cruelty, and if so can you share them? 5. If you have no independent figures then what exactly is your ranking scheme for your ‘survey’? How common does an act of cruelty have to be within a society before it counts as a ‘hit’? How much ‘Oriental’ ancestry, genetics or phenotypic expression does a cruel person need to possess before an act of cruelty on their part counts as a ‘hit’ in an Oriental cell for analysis purposes. Where do you intend to get your figures: all popular literature, court transcripts, ‘The Midnight Star’ or simply someone telling you what a friend of a friend ate. I know this isn’t a peer reviewed journal, but until at least two people in a debate are certain exactly what the topic of debate is the cause of fighting ignorance is hardly likely to be enhanced. No one has any problem with your stating opinion as far as I know, but it makes it a lot easier to debate something if we know what the credibility level of the information is. So far I think every assumption, assertion and statement in your initial proposition has been called into question. If we can’t clear up at least some of the above points this is just going to degenerate further towards either pit thread starter, or train wreck status. Since I enjoy hearing what people have to present on these sorts of topics I hate seeing that happen. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/91 "2001-02-05T08:42:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaspode \* > OK, I’ve now read through this whole thread and I have to note that this nightmare is looking more and more like a **Peace** thread. Oh really much worse. Peace, who is once more with us --read the other race thread and tell me if you can’t tell-- does have more style. Advent’s _irrellevant_ just doesn’t cut it. But in terms of sheer denseness? Yes, all to reminiscent. > [@](#): > > **Adventurious82** before anyone can go any way towards enlightening you more, or you them, you really need to start defining what is under discussion. So far you have displayed a tendency to simply label as ‘irrelevant’ anything that suggests that you are confusing issues, facts and assertions. Let me take back my prior statement, his “irrelevant” response to my pointing out his confusion (I think) of Arab and Far East, stunned me into silence. I was confused. I asked myself, is he really so obtuse? Can it be that this is more than a simple tactic to avoid criticism, or does he really think this is irrelevant? I remain puzzled. > [@](#): > > To that end can you please clarify a few points: > > 1. Have you read **Collounsbury** ’s links, and if so could you please enlighten us on those threads why you reject the concept of race being an artificial classification system? Otherwise this is just going to turn into another race thread, and that really has been done to death. Did he? Ah well. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/92 "2001-02-05T10:20:53Z")
I’m a bit puzzled myself. Adventurious82: I’ll echo Gaspode’s request - In particular the question about how you specifically are defining Oriental. I know you said Oriental=Asian and you’ve mentioned various East Asian cultures, but I am curious if you are including people in the Middle East and India. If you’re not, you do realize you start running into problems. Just as an example - When you essentially claim that people like the Mongols are an exemplar of ‘Oriental’ cruelty who supposedly share a common language, diet, etc. with people like the Han Chinese, when actually their language is much more closely related to that of people in Turkey. Or, if, say Persians and Near Eastern Turks are excluded, you have to account of the horrendously bloody exploits of the Jinghiz Khan’s spiritual successor, my namesake 😉 . Or Nadir Shah of Persia during the sack of Delhi in 1739. Etc. Of course if you _are_ including everyone in Asia as Oriental, you’re creating a whole new set of problems 😉 . And you are aware that people from the city of Genoa are referred to as Genoese, right 😃 ? See the thing is - If you were proposing an argument that said, oh, say: 1.) Much of East Asia has been manifestly affected by the dominant cultural/geopolitical power in the region, China… 2.)And that you thought that one aspect of Chinese culture was a certain degree of callousness towards food sources or animals generally. Or perhaps there was some amount of xenophobia towards non-Chinese culture that manifested itself in callousness towards foreigners. Or maybe even that the Mandate of Heaven system or some cultural corollary had created a philosophical disregard for the personal rights of the enemy during wartime… 3.) And that you thought that perhaps one or all of the above factors had, in the course of cultural diffusion, been imprinted in one way or another on many of the surrounding nations and cultures… Well, then I might disagree with your argument ( likely would, in part - at least as proposed abve ), but I could understand where you are making the logical leap to your conclusions. But instead you are making a **very** wide argument that seems to be based on a hugely broad and unscientific ( and partially undefined by you ) definition of race and a lot of easily countered or somewhat dubious anecdotal evidence. And you keep changing your rules of debate by, for example, first including, then excluding, then including medieval societies. Now to be fair, you have made _partial_ concessions on such issues as the influence of culture. But I do think you are stubbornly clinging to some very weak arguments that you need to re-examine. Or drop. Number one IMHO, would be your concept of race. Because I think even those ( very few ) scholars that still insist on the validity of the concept of race as a genetic reality, would not use as broad a categorization as you seem to. And although I’m not going to say, “Go read a book”, I do think you should look at some of those links provided on such subjects as language groups and think carefully on the info provided therein. Some of the sweeping claims you have made in regards as to the inter-relatedness of “Oriental” culture are pretty easily refuted if you start looking seriously at the evidence. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/93 "2001-02-05T19:08:49Z")
I’d just like to state that I’ve given up any hope of enlightening **Adven** at this point, and am merely following this thread for the amusement of watching him try to plug all the holes everyone else has been punching in his “theory.” But then, being Chinese, I suppose this would be an example of me enjoying “cruelty” and “tormenting” of innocents, eh? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/94 "2001-02-07T15:48:53Z")
Okay, the “eating live monkey brains through a hole in the table” is an Oriental Urban Legend that has been around at least since the 1960s. I remember reading a particularly horrifying sci-fi story from that time period (sorry, I can’t remember the title) that dealt with it. The last line went something like, “Under the table, she felt tiny hands clutching her skirt”. However, I also remember reading not so long ago a serious travel book, by someone who went to the Orient and sampled various odd foods like dog and snake, and I have the impression that it was P.J. O’Rourke, although maybe not. And this travel writer asked everywhere he went about the “eating live monkeys through the hole cut in the table” and always got one of two responses. Either he was told, with a big smile, “Oh, that’s just a myth, people don’t do that anymore, here, try some of this”, or he was given the silent treatment and the subject was changed. So, IIRC, he came to the not unreasonable conclusion that yeah, some people still do this. So I did a Google search under “monkey brain eat” and this website came up. [http://www.iohk.com/UserPages/kcchan/monkey.htm](http://www.iohk.com/UserPages/kcchan/monkey.htm) I will leave it up to you to decide whether it’s all a hoax or not. But for some reason I can’t help remembering the “hamster squishing” flap of a few years back. Remember? The one where you could supposedly go to a website and download a video of a woman squishing a hamster by stepping on it with a high heel shoe. Some people said at the time that that was just a hoax, too, but we live in a world populated by John Wayne Gacys and Jeffery Dahmers; nothing surprises me anymore. And I’m with **Rjung** , nobody’s going to change **Adven’s** mind about any of this. See, what he’s doing here is essentially sharing his opinions, not asking us to help him debate them. His opinion is that the Oriental races are inherently more cruel, and no amount of talk concerning the cruelty of other races is going to change his opinion. He grew up with the Myth of the Inscrutable, Dangerous Oriental, and that’s the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![Pyrrho12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Pyrrho12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyrrho12)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/95 "2001-02-10T03:54:50Z")
I just want to do one more post in this thread so that **Adventurious** doesn’t think that all the web sites he provided went unread… or unchallenged. I realize that questioning his “evidence” is hardly necessary; the logical flaws in his use of the term “race” are enough to end this discussion. However, this stuff is stuck in my head, and I have to write it down. I aplologise for beating my dead horse in public. **Adventurious** , you have provided lots of information regarding Japanese war crimes- particularly, the treatment of prisoners during WW2. However, as has been pointed out before, showing that the Japanese did these things hardly demonstrates that your claims apply to all residents of Asia. This gets back to the definition of race point, as mentioned above. Your cites also fail to demonstrate two very important claims: namely, that these acts of cruelty were casually commited by average citizens, and that the actions of the Japanese were far worse than the actions of the Nazis during that period. You do have one cite that addresses this second point- the British comparison of Japanese and German POW camps. With respect to this discussion, said article is flawed in one very important respect. It mentions the conditions under which allied troops were held in German camps, but does not mention the plight of the Soviets or Polish. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Soviet and Polish prisoners in German camps were less likely to survive the war than American prisoners in Japanese camps. I should thank you for your final cite, which provides extensive documentation of American war crimes in Vietnam. I can’t imagine what you were thinking to include this web link, since it only seems to weaken your case. ---
**Author:** ![kryptonite2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/85e7bf/32.png) [@kryptonite2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kryptonite2)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/96 "2001-02-10T20:48:31Z")
Adventurious82: what does the 82 in your screen name stand for? your birthyear perhaps? is it possible that you are just an 18 year old who has based his entire argument on minimal contact with asians and a few history books you might have picked up in high school (written by caucasians)? ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/97 "2001-02-24T06:00:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ptahlis \* > \*\*The cruelest race? Human. Variations in pigmentation or the absence/presence of an epicanthic fold have no bearing on the issue. \*\* Applause! Cheers! Terrific response! Amazingly sucinct. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/98 "2001-02-24T06:20:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\*As you may have heard, Adventurious82, Japan is one of the safest countries in the world when it comes to violent crime. I just ran a web search on the subject, and according to the first relevant site that came up ([http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s202/s202.html](http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s202/s202.html)) Japan has fewer murders each year than the state of Texas, despite having a much larger population. > > But the Japanese like to _eat raw fish_, so clearly their fiendish yellow race is more inherently cruel than the civilized white man or the noble savages of Africa and the Americas. :rolleyes: > \*\* Omigod! It’s all clear to me now! Adventurious82 is a fish! He’s bitter, because his whole family was wiped out by fiendish “orientals” who ate them alive. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2001, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234/99 "2001-02-28T10:51:53Z")
Holy crap! I just read every single word on the entire thread and my head is spinning. **on the "cruel food"** To my knowledge, the monkey brain custom, as well as the duck feet, etc., are all bona fide, and Hong Kong used to be a mecca for these disturbing activities. I live in Hong Kong: these practices are no longer common, but it is rumoured (by the locals) that they are still available to those who look hard enough or pay enough money (not me, thanks). This does not appear to be an urban legend, at least not at ground zero where I am. Yes, you can have snake any way you want it here, from fresh and bloody to pickled to cooked in soup. Same with turtles. Restaurants during snake and turtle seasons look more like zoos than eateries and, unlike the live monkey brains, snakes and turtles are eaten by the masses. When it comes to food, all sorts of things are eaten around the world. Yes, some types of dog are considered delicacies by Chinese and Taiwanese alike. Rat is considered good for the skin in many rural areas of China. The Thais have a fascination with eating insects such as water beetles and silk worms. I could go on. I could also mention that in the Mediterranean basin sea urchins are best eaten just after they are pulled out of the water and when still alive. So are oysters, all over the world. I agree completely with **Adventurious82** on the topic of cruelty to animals and empathy. The question is, are the people who enjoy this “cruel food” seeing the animals as living beings, or as food?? Food can look very different depending on who you are: meat butchered and wrapped sitting in air-curtain freezers is as much food as a wild sow and her infant offspring–it depends on who you are, where you are, and how hungry you are. **qualifiers for cruel foods and "medicines"** Shark’s fin is ridiculously cruel AND wasteful. So is rhinoceros’s horn. These problems are caused by the culture, and not by the asian “race”. Tiger penis, for example, supposedly confers on the eater the power (including sexual power, and this is the big ticket) of the entire animal. Small, active dogs are prized as food in some areas of China and Taiwan because of their energy levels and vitality. Massive ignorance across many cultures (not just Asians, although to be honest Asian customs spring to **my** mind) results in irresponsible behaviour that is not only unethical from any point of view, but threatens the survival of entire species. Must the last tiger in the region be killed to allow some idiot a chance to feel good about his sex life? Try a sex therapist before annihilating a species! This is a problem with culture and not “race”. **Asians** Asia is a big, big place, with many, many different cultures and ethnic groups. Generalizations are not going to hold up. Not all Asians are the same size. Not all Asians have the same skin hue, eyes, or build. You would not group An Iraqi in the same category as a Swede, so why would you try to do that to Asian peoples? **Races** The discussion on four basic races is not logically viable. The arguments against have been presented several times in this thread: **this is an issue of appearance, not innate characteristics**. It is well established that the human species enjoys a continuum of diversity across its spectrum. Take an Australian Aborigine and transplant him to Argentina at birth, and he will grow up like all the other boys in Argentina, speak Spanish, dance the tango, etc. In other words, it is your environment and culture that define who you are and how cruel you are. I agree it is entirely possible for individuals to be innately cruel, but I disagree with the proposition that any particular “race” is more cruel than another. It’s all about culture and environment. **Cruel acts in War and Politics** > [@](#): > > There have been many incidents of cruel acts committed in wars by non-Asian’s, Americans included, but the thing of it is, such acts do not seem to spring so easily to these races as observed historically in the Asian one. While no race is free of such acts, it seems to me that the incidents of them are moreso among Asians. One possible reason it may seem to you that most of these acts were committed by Asians is that 1) there are so many Asians, across such a large territory, and 2) that you may naturally turn a blind eye towards atrocities and problems caused by people who are more similar to you or your culture. Notice how you immediately assumed that people reading your OP on the cruelties of “orientals” would think it was blacks. I can think of several examples that prove you wrong: US in VIETNAM – If you think the Viet Cong were cruel savages, go visit the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Mihn City and look at what Americans did to Vietnam and its people. There is no shortage of disturbing pictures, facts, and exhibits, including far too many pictures of grinning American soldiers holding up bloody machetes and bleeding heads or other body parts. The slaughter of civilians was wholesale–women and children included. Prisoners WERE tortured. Most photographs were taken by Western photographers and published in Western publications. I will spare you the visual horrors of Agent Orange and the sickeningly deformed foetuses on display in formaldehyde. I won’t even go into the discussion of the earthquake bombs and similar weapons of utter destruction. JAPAN – I agree that something very bizarre seems to be happening with Japanese popular culture, and it is generating some equally bizarre behaviour (for example, the fascination with schoolgirls and their underwear, and the popularity of bondage across types of media). Suffering seems to be an integral part of Japanese popular culture, as does violence (as mentioned previosuly in this thread). On the other hand, you have Hello Kitty. It is a little bizarre, but it is not really much stranger than the American obsession with big explosions, gunfire, and strong women in so many film and television series. Anyone watching American films and TV abroad must be scared stiff of ever visiting the country for fear of being blown up by an exploding car or beaten into hamburger by aggressive women in tight clothing. YUGOSLAVIA – Serbians committed atrocities all over Yugoslavia for over a decade. So did the Bosnians and Croatians. So did the Albanian Kosovars. So did NATO, led by the US and UK: cluster bombs and depleted uranium, the disarming of legitimate Serb militias who were then unable to protect civilians from Albanian terrorists, standing idly by while all ethnic groups involved suffered, allowing masses of people to be displaced not just once but several times! CHINA – China caught a lot of flack in this thread for being communist and therefore automatically evil. PICK UP A HISTORY BOOK!!! China was in far worse condition _before_ the communists took over. In fact, Communism has brought incredible benefits to China, chief among them feeding and modernizing the country. Do not fall into the trap of believing that communism is always the worst alternative. If it weren’t for communism, people all over China would still be dying like flies, killed by fellow Chinese, hunger, or disease. You can’t make generalizations for an entire country, nevermind the world’s most populated region! Seems to me like most items you are ascribing to “race” are actually “culture”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-inherant-ly-cruel-race/52234.md?page=4)