"The most powerful, proven instrument of material and social progress is the free market." Cite?

The more I think about it, the more I realize this idea of a free market is a contradiction in terms: It is supposed to be about the freedom to voluntarily exchange goods and services for whatever price you can negotiate.

But all this hinges on the ability to negotiate. And everything in this thread has worked to undermine the ability to negotiate.

Negotiation is about power and control. It is not a kind or gentle process, it is not fair, it is not just. So the larger and more powerful a company can get, the more control it has over negotiations, dare I say to excerpt monopoly powers. And eventually, we cease to have a free market.

If we have a free market, it will allow the concentration of power, which will negate the free market. So we work to prevent the concentration of power, which negates the free market. The whole thing is an illusion.

What do you mean “negotiation is about power and control”?

Think back to the free market example of a business owner renting retail space. He is “free” to negotiate the terms of his rent, and as part of that he is “free” to go somewhere else and rent.

The price negotiation is going to hinge on two things, the availability of other retail spaces, and the availability of other renters. In a free market, the price of that retail space should fall to an equilibrium based on those two factors.

The landlord is going to seek to control his side of the equation, and drive up the price as high as he can get it. The more spaces he can own, the more control he has over supply. As he is able to acquire more spaces, he’s able to dictate the terms of the negotiation.

I learned this lesson the hard way in third year university when I tried to rent my second apartment. After calling around, I realized that my landlord owned a lot of properties. Turns out, roughly 90% of units were owned by 3 guys.

The renter on the other hand, is going to also seek power and control. If they’re able to rent a lot of spaces, they can force the landlord to lower the price. This is the Walmart effect.

Like I said earlier, McDonalds is the single largest purchaser of beef in the US. With that power is control over negotiations. About 90% of soybeans planted in the US is from Monsanto.

Size matters.

I do. Although I don’t think he’s especially bright.

We absolutely do not. Does the government interfere with your salary negotiations? Or the price of a sandwich at the corner deli? The only thing the government should “monitor” is if you try to steal a sandwich or if someone violates the terms of a contract. Then you have a legal recourse.

There is no “misrepresent”. If you don’t like the price, you don’t pay for the product. Even a monopoly can’t charge any price it likes. At some point, people will simply be unwilling or unable to buy the product.

Don’t get bent out of shape at me because you don’t have any idea about what you are talking about. It doesn’t count as collusion because it isn’t any more than it is collusion for a company to only make software for the PC and not the Mac. Apple and AT&T are not competetors. Apple sell phones and ATT sells mobile service. They are two distinct but complementary products. It would be collusion if ATT and Verizon somehow conspired. You have a choice of substitutes if you don’t like ATT or the iPhone.
Next class: Natural monopolies

History if full of companies that get large enough to dictate employment terms in a manner that violates a free market. In response, government sets regulations concerning labor practices, minimum wages, age requirements, etc. As an example, the US used to have slavery, so the government interfered and help negotiate a better wage. Then the government interfered again and desegregated. Then they interfered again and made anti discrimination laws. Then they implemented employment equity and affirmative action.

Children used to be used in mines. Why is it we don’t do that any more? Did the free market create a demand for child-free-coal?

Some times, to combat a large and powerful company, groups of employees will collude in the form of a union. I asked earlier but didn’t get an answer: should we allow unions?

Well, if those are the only things I guess we’ll let those uppity African Americans go back to negotiating on their own.

No, it doesn’t count as collusion because the law hasn’t been defined that way. Just like we don’t consider it collusion for a group of employees to band together and demand high wages.

Collusion isn’t just a definition in your text book, it’s a legal concept society had to agree on, after deciding that it’s bad. But you haven’t told me why it’s bad, and why it shouldn’t be allowed in a free market.

So now things like patents and trademark law are interchangeable with “monopoly” and “oligopoly.”

Well, I’m done. If you won’t even stay coherent, there’s no point in discussing any of this.

What?!?!?!

Are you asking me to give you an example of slavery without government except those cases where slavery existed without government? Or are you asking me to give you an example of governmentally enforced slavery without government?

Yeah, I bet a lot of things seem logical to you but that might have something to do with the prism through which you view the world. In your view, slavery cannot exist without government because slavery is limited to the kind of slavery that is enforced by government.

I thought the thread was about whether the free market was the most powerful instrument of material and social progress in the world. I was furthering the position that government, rule of law, civilization, these are what makes all other things possible. The regulated free market works just fine today but as attitudes and social structures change, this too can change. Perhaps one day the libertarian vision of free markets can work and perhaps one day communism could work but I wouldn’t put my money on either of them. But I would bet a lot of money that without governments, we are all screwed.

And you think the government regulation is causing the lack of competition or is it possible that the structural barriers to competition in some industries makes them good candidates for regulation?

How many electrical companies do you have in your area? There is only one in my area and it is regulated. Is there some governmentally enforced monopoly or is it possible taht there is such a thing as a natural monopoly??

Yeah, that assumes perfect competition. There is plenty of rent seeking behaviour all over the place and there is a reason it exists, because it is successful.

Post snipped.

Which market are you talking about? There are more markets than just PCs. Presently Linux and Unix own something like 35% of the server market.

In the supercomputer market Microsoft is sucking wind.

In the tablet market Apple is kicking ass. Android is going to catch up rapidly as soon as RIM and Sumsung release their tablets later this year. Also Google is entering this market. MS is going to have a very hard time in this market.

Google is releasing their Chrome OS which is going to eat into MS big time (that is a guess but probably a very good one. Google is damned good at what they do). I expect Chrome to to take a huge chunk of the netbook market. If this goes well I expect they will jump in the PC market. Also for netbooks, Linux variants are about 32% of the market right now.

Apple is running their standard ~10% market share for PCs. If they came down in price their share would increase dramatically. The problem isn’t Apples OS, it is the price of their hardware.

So, first there are more markets than just PCs. Second MS has a lot of competition in those markets.

Slee

There is such a thing as a natural monopoly but not everything is a natural monopoly.

You simply cannot eliminate competition in some areas without government interference and similarly you can’t eliminate monopolies in some areas without government interference.

“At the 1997 Macworld Expo, Steve Jobs announced that Apple would join Microsoft to release new versions of Microsoft Office for the Macintosh, and that Microsoft made a $150 million investment in non-voting Apple stock.”

“United States v. Microsoft was a set of consolidated civil actions filed against Microsoft Corporation pursuant to the Sherman Antitrust Act on May 18, 1998 by the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) and 20 U.S. states. Joel I. Klein was the lead prosecutor. The plaintiffs alleged that Microsoft abused **monopoly **power on Intel-based personal computers in its handling of operating system sales and web browser sales.”

“On November 2, 2001, the DOJ reached an agreement with Microsoft to settle the case. The proposed settlement required Microsoft to share its application programming interfaces with third-party companies and appoint a panel of three people who will have full access to Microsoft’s systems, records, and source code for five years in order to ensure compliance.[16] The Settlement’s requirements were primarily designed to ensure there were stringent oversight procedures and explicit requirements to prevent Microsoft from engaging in “Predatory Behavior” or other practices that might form a “Barrier to Entry”.” From Wiki

How odd that the US government would use a term like monopoly, when clearly Microsoft didn’t have 100% control of a given market. And there were so many other competitors. The ignorance at the Department of Justice.

You know what market MS really sucks in, carrots.

We covered this.

You can’t see the difference between a natural weeding out of competitors through competition and several competitors conspiring to manipulate the market?

We generally view competition as a good thing as in encourages companies to sell their products at a lower price, lowers costs as they seek to improve their bottom line and encourages inovation as they strive to produce new and superior products.

We don’t allow collusion because it eliminates those positive benefits. When companies form a cartel, they essentially eliminate the free market. They become a de facto central planning agency that is not subject to the same oversight that elected government officials are.

Yes, you just answered your own question on why collusion is bad.

In reality, in any large city it is typically impossible for any one landlord to own so much property that they can affect prices significantly.

Okay, now we’ve established that collusion bad and that it reduces competition.

Now you just need to answer two questions:

  1. Will collusion ever occur in a free market?

  2. What is the free market solution to (or prevention of) collusion?

1: Yes, it sometimes occurs.

2: Several factors make collusion difficult to establish and maintain.

2.1 You have to acquire enough of a given type of resource to be dominant players. This condition is often fulfilled but in other cases it just not going to happen.

2.2 You have to come to an agreement to restrict supply and enforce it. This, without some superior government enforcement, is difficult because there is great incentive for all actors to cheat. To look at an international example, OPEC countries often cheat on their oil production quotas.

2.3 Higher than expected profits brings new entrants who are attracted to the market by higher prices. Monopolies and oligopolies will often not seek to exploit their advantageous positions to the maximum extent because they know doing so would send signals that would attract entrants and make minor competitors increase supply.

2.4 Even if they moderate their influence on the market, they can still be victims to new entrants who produce similar products. Ford used to be the biggest car producer 100 years ago. 50 years later, it was no longer Ford but GM. GM went bankrupt and now it’s Toyota. Betamax used to be dominant in the home video market; now Betamax is just a business school lesson.
2.5 Creative destruction. Radical shifts can occur which leave a formerly dominant actor behind, doing the equivalent of being a knight who tries to fight a rifleman. IBM used to have a near monopoly on computers. If you wanted to listen to music on the move in the 70s, you would likely have done it with a LearJet product. The only economical way to ship goods accross the US used to be the train, not anymore.

You have to distinguish between the intent of the actors (and most of them would love to be rid of their competition) and the consequences of the actions of all actors. They’re often quite different.

There are examples of both, of course. Your point being…

Technically it’s a contradiction of terms, but yes. Without regulation and oversight it can occur because not all industries or services lend themselves to “perfect competition”. IOW competetion where there are so many players that none can dominate the market and players can enter and leave the market freely. Because of economies of scale, many industries tend to evolve towards oligopoly. Automobile and aircraft manufacturing is extremely capital intensive. For compatibility reasons, the software industry does not support dozens of different opererating systems. Fewer players means greater potential that they can come together to manipulate the market.

I feel like you are clumsily trying to set up a trick question “how does the free market stop collusion by doing nothing?”

The “free market” purist solution is to do nothing. Cartels only work if all the parties are in agreement. However, in the long run, market forces provide incentives for one or more party to “cheat”. IOW lower prices so they can gain a greater market share. The cartel then falls apart.
The problem with depending too much on regulation is that as companies grow too large in size, they become “too big to fail”. IOW, it becomes politically untenable to allow those companies to be placed in a position where some potential competitor or disruptive technology can drive them out of business (and create a lot of unemployed voters). So politicians work to protect those companies or industries. This of course creates a moral hazard where those companies or industries no longer feel pressure to innovate or compete. And in extreme cases they can create “zombie” firms that are essentially useless but require a constant influx of cash to stay afloat.

So you should be able to see by now that while the free market is a powerful instrument of material and social progress, it is a delicate condition that requires government oversight that is protective without being intrusive or manipulative.

The part the anti-market participants in this thread wholly fail to understand is that the market’s nature is self-regulating in the vast majority of cases.

Let’s use physics as an analogy. A physical system is stable when upsets to the system create opposing forces that tend to push the system back to its original state. Push a pendulum, and gravity works against the motion pulling the weight back to the center. Eventually, everything returns to its resting state. In an unstable system (say, a ball at the top of a hill), if you disturb the system, forces keep building to increase the change.

Markets exhibit properties of inherent stability, because they have feedback. Let’s take the collusion example. Two companies collude to raise prices. What happens? Their profit margins go up, and that attracts new entrants to the market. But also, their prices go up, which causes people to buy less of their product and shift to alternatives, limiting the damage (and eating their market share).

As a case in point, take Canada Nickel. International Nickel of Canada at one point owned a large percentage of the world’s nickel reserves. Yet it didn’t charge monopoly prices. How come? There are several reasons. One is that there are alternatives to nickel for many products, so raising the price of nickel above the competitive market price would cause many consumers of nickel to switch to other products, eroding the nickel market. For another a high price for nickel would stimulate exploration and production of nickel elsewhere, just as the high price of oil from OPEC’s cartel has stimulated exploration of oil in the deep sea and the development of oil sands and oil shales (and the growth of alternatives to oil like solar, wind, and nuclear power).

I could not find a single recorded instance of a monopoly being created and held by the systematic buyout of competitors. One of the reasons for this is again feedback. Once the competitors realize that a large company is trying to buy them out, they start to price themselves accordingly. The cost to buy out that last company is going to be really, really high. If the big company pays it, it has increased its own cost structure and opened the door for new competitors to take advantage of the higher prices they can now charge because their competition is saddled with a high-cost infrastructure.

And so it goes. Profits in competitive markets are driven down to the lowest sustainable level by the same kinds of forces that drive a pendulum back to rest.

As another example, take Starbucks. Starbucks expanded very quickly and became almost ubiquitous. But what happened was that the high profits of Starbucks caused property owners to charge very high rents for property that Starbucks wanted. High enough that eventually Starbucks’ profitability declined to the typical level seen for such specialty stores. And in addition, their high-priced coffee model boxed them into a corner (they pay high rents, so they can’t sell cheap coffee), so now competitors of all sorts are attacking the Starbucks business model.

This form of regulatory power is MUCH stronger than that which the government asserts on the market. My company spends most of its time working on improving its products and cutting costs, purely because of market pressure. I work for one of the biggest companies in the world, but I have NEVER seen them try to establish a monopoly. I sit in on quite a few management/finance meetings where mergers and acquisitions are discussed. It’s never done just to eliminate a competitor. Almost always, when we buy a company it’s to fill a strategic gap in our product line or to acquire expertise or facilities that we can use to make our products better and more competitive.

As a matter of fact, managers are taught that having competitors is a good thing. It keeps you lean and on your toes. The competitor’s research and development benefits you as well - especially when they spend money on a product that fails. You get to learn from that failure at no cost. Competitors also legitimize markets and part of their ad spending benefits everyone as it helps build up the entire market.

As an example, consider Henry Ford. The Model T had a near monopoly on the auto market. Ford tried to trade on that by cutting costs and ignoring consumer desires in exchange for saving money. He famously said, “You can have any color of Model T you want - so long as it’s black.” He refused to update the style of the car, because that would increase his tooling costs. He refused to add different colors, because color changeover is expensive.

The result of his refusal to meet market demands was that General Motors took advantage of the hole he left in the market and started introducing more stylish, colorful cars. Their market share rapidly ate into Ford’s. Ford was forced by the power of the market to do what he didn’t want to do, which was to spend more money on tooling and finishing. He had no choice - the market had spoken. Even the biggest car manufacturer, the inventor of the modern assembly line, who owned a huge fraction of the auto market, was utterly powerless to stop the market from getting what it wanted.
Does this always work? No. There are true cases of monopoly. Usually, they require government intervention to maintain them. But sometimes a natural monopoly can arise because of the nature of a specific market. And there is role for government regulation to prevent this. But these types of markets are rare, and generally obvious. We know them when we see them.

But there is no excuse to use the existence of a few potential monopolies in very specific areas as an excuse to bring the heavy hand of government regulation down on every player in the marketplace.

I agree, although I think most of these cases are overstated. People made the argument that Microsoft should be broken up because it could trade on its dominance in operating systems to over-charge customers for other applications. But what in fact happened was that the market adapted. Open-source operating systems became more common. People gravitated towards cheaper software. Alternatives to the PC developed. Microsoft is now facing more competition across the board than it ever has.

What baffles me is why the people who are so worried about collusion don’t seem to focus on where the vast amount of collusion happens - through government action.

You mentioned the auto industry. When the ‘big 3’ auto makers were failing to compete against foreign car makers, they ran to the government, which threatened to slap tariffs on Japanese autos unless the Japanese ‘voluntarily’ accepted a quota on the number of cars they could import to the U.S. This is known as making the Japanese an offer they can’t refuse.

One of the reasons Africa is still in poverty is because African textile workers have been frozen out of textile markets because of collusion between current textile makers and their governments.

The Unions colluded with the American government to gain power through the Davis-Bacon act, which forced all government contractors to pay prevailing union wages. The act was actually a racist act, used to freeze poor black workers out of lucrative contracts that then went almost exclusively to white workers.

Farmers in the United States, primarily large agri-businesses, maintain high profits through subsidies and tariffs applied on their behalf by the U.S. government.

Building codes in many states exist for the sole purpose of benefiting specific companies or unions that lobbied for them. A company that tried to sell pre-fab modular buildings was shut down when states passed codes making press-fit connections in plumbing illegal. This maintained lots of jobs for union plumbers, at the expense of the public.

In my province, a well-connected company managed to convince/bribe the government to certify pine shakes for house roofing, giving them a huge advantage over the cedar shake competitors. Thousands of homes in my city were shingled with pine shakes - which all proceeded to rot within five to ten years. Almost all of them have now been re-roofed at tremendous expense. I paid $8,000 to do our house last year.

When I was a student, I worked in a chemistry lab. I watched as another, politically-connected lab managed to get some big research grants from the government. It was then able to lower the prices of its products, forcing other competitors out of the market. The grants to ‘promote research’ actually reduced research spending because it reduced the number of players in the market.

Last year, Mattel lobbied hard for the ‘lead in toys act’, which forced makers of new and used toys to test everything in the toy for lead content. Mattel could do this easily, as it already had the diagnostic equipment and control over the supply chain going into its products. But it was utterly impossible for small toy manufacturers to do this, or for thrift stores selling used toys. The result was that $200 million dollars worth of product from Mattel’s competitors was destroyed, and the import market for cheap foreign toys damaged. Good for Mattel, but bad for all the poor children whose parents were going to buy them used toys instead of the expensive new Mattel ones…

I could go on and on. While examples of real collusion and monopoly power in free markets are rare, they are extremely common when government uses regulatory power - usually at the behest of the special interests behind the scenes.