# The most rational way for a believer to view God and the afterlife **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 17, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452 "2012-06-17T20:13:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/61 "2012-06-19T19:27:49Z")
> [@kp\_72110](#): > > What’s more rational: To believe a Creator has always existed or that the Universe without a creator has always existed? No creator is necessary. The universe did not exist before the big bang. Quantum mechanics says it created itself. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/62 "2012-06-19T19:53:45Z")
> [@kp\_72110](#): > > Something cannot come from nothing. Since this is your assertion, then where did your creator come from? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/63 "2012-06-19T19:55:38Z")
> [@kp\_72110](#): > > What’s more rational: To believe a Creator has always existed or that the Universe without a creator has always existed? I find it hard to understand how anyone can say there is no Creator (which would have to always have existed, an eternal Being) but believe the Universe has always existed. You can’t say “Well I don’t believe the universe has always existed (in one form or another)”. Something cannot come from nothing. Sure it can. Happens all the time in quantum foam. If the universe has a net energy of 0, there is no reason it couldn’t just pop into existence, assuming it didn’t come from a singularity in another universe. In any case a universe starting with only strings or quarks is much easier to believe in than a universe starting with an infinitely complex thinking deity. > [@](#): > > You can argue/debate the nature of that Creator. But how you can deny one doesn’t exist is quite perplexing. And if you say well whomever/whatever created our universe hasn’t always existed then you go back to something coming from nothing. Because if that creator was created then by who? As mentioned, no creator is needed. But even if you choose to believe in one, how do you connect the actual creator with any God believed in by humans. If the creator ever talked to us, and ever gave us information about the creation, wouldn’t he get it right? None of the deities inspiring creation stories did. > [@](#): > > Personally when I see so much Biblical prophecy being fulfilled.. Well, my beliefs are obvious from that one statement. I’ll leave you to decide for yourself because I can’t convince you to believe in my Creator. But to deny one exists is quite “ignorant”. If your creator told you that the universe was created in six days in the order of Genesis, your creator is a fraud. What is more plausible - that the Creator of the Universe lied to you, or that the story was made up by men who knew no better? ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/64 "2012-06-19T20:04:56Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Yet I can go show you many Cat in the Hat books and at least one movie. Indeed, and I can show you many “holy” books and Morgan Freeman, but that doesn’t mean that God exists. > [@](#): > > According to your way of thinking, infinity is only a mathematical concept. Nothing is infinite. Yet we use the concept to build, travel and engineer when no other way we know would do it. If we destroy every Calculus text ever printed, do those buildings and bridges collapse? A bit sloppy with the language there, but it doesn’t matter. Just because we find some concept useful as an abstraction, that doesn’t mean it exists in reality. > [@](#): > > For purposes of history, most historians will agree that Jesus was a person and existed. Many people and some historians find insufficient evidence. Does that affect whether or not such a man existed? No. This is irrelevant, but I apologize as it was my sloppy use of language that led to it. It matters not if Jesus the man existed (and really, that’s at least a large part of why you won’t see historians rocking the boat on the question – it just doesn’t matter). We’re talking here of gods, and so I meant that it is irrelevant what this character from the Bible says about the Jewish god – there is no rational reason to suppose that he has any insight into the topic. > [@](#): > > Your attacks insist that everyone’s concept of the divine is that there is actually some being administratively responsible for everything at all times, that it doesn’t make sense and therefore it cannot be. Actually, no they don’t. I will direct attacks toward such a target whenever someone talks of “God” as the capitalized ‘G’ indicates you are speaking of one specific character – the god envisioned by the Christians (and, of course, the Jews and Muslims, in so far as those three share certain characteristics). > [@](#): > > Well, I certainly do know know of a main office of a deity that I can go and apply to. Uh-huh, sure you do. > [@](#): > > I do know that I can organize my life around the idea and feeling that treating everyone with love is divine and understand the divine that way. That’s great for you. But it means nothing in a discussion about the reality of gods or how to think rationally about them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/65 "2012-06-19T20:13:03Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > Since this is your assertion, then where did your creator come from? When they spell it with a capital “C”, I think we are supposed to assume that the question doesn’t have to be answered. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/66 "2012-06-19T20:17:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When they spell it with a capital “C”, I think we are supposed to assume that the question doesn’t have to be answered. Convenient way to get out of a question that just can’t be answered, innit? ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/67 "2012-06-19T20:55:50Z")
> [@kp\_72110](#): > > What’s more rational: To believe a Creator has always existed or that the Universe without a creator has always existed? What’s more logical, a perfect being that always existed, or an imperfect cosmos that always existed? Seems logically neutral to me, except not having a creator removes one step making the imperfect cosmos the more simple answer. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/68 "2012-06-19T22:57:42Z")
> [@kp\_72110](#): > > You can’t say “Well I don’t believe the universe has always existed (in one form or another)”. Something cannot come from nothing. Yes you can: [A Universe From Nothing](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo) (one hour video). For further reading, [a blogpost](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/04/28/a-universe-from-nothing/) discussing its pros and cons. > [@](#): > > There most certainly is a Creator. Just-so stories aren’t proof of anything. Face it, you can’t prove God on logical grounds. The best you can do is what the OP does: accept your belief as a subjective conclusion that you can live with, and move on. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/69 "2012-06-20T01:41:59Z")
> [@kp\_72110](#): > > What’s more rational: To believe a Creator has always existed or that the Universe without a creator has always existed? I find it hard to understand how anyone can say there is no Creator (which would have to always have existed, an eternal Being) but believe the Universe has always existed. You can’t say “Well I don’t believe the universe has always existed (in one form or another)”. Something cannot come from nothing. > > You can argue/debate the nature of that Creator. But how you can deny one doesn’t exist is quite perplexing. And if you say well whomever/whatever created our universe hasn’t always existed then you go back to something coming from nothing. Because if that creator was created then by who? > > It can’t be “turtles all the way down”. There most certainly is a Creator. > > Personally when I see so much Biblical prophecy being fulfilled.. Well, my beliefs are obvious from that one statement. I’ll leave you to decide for yourself because I can’t convince you to believe in my Creator. But to deny one exists is quite “ignorant”. Obviously we’re dealing with things, scientific or otherwise that our beyond our present scope of knowledge. Still, I see no more rationality in assuming an intelligent purposeful creator being, than just saying , we really don’'t know how things started. We’ll always come around to the “but where did X come from” no matter what we assume. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/70 "2012-06-20T05:08:28Z")
> [@kp\_72110](#): > > What’s more rational: To believe a Creator has always existed or that the Universe without a creator has always existed? I find it hard to understand how anyone can say there is no Creator (which would have to always have existed, an eternal Being) but believe the Universe has always existed. You can’t say “Well I don’t believe the universe has always existed (in one form or another)”. Something cannot come from nothing. What’s more rational: To believe a creator of the Creator has always existed or that the Creator without a creator has always existed? I find it hard to understand how anyone can say there is no creator of the Creator (which would have to always have existed, an eternal Being) but believe the Creator has always existed. You can’t say “Well I don’t believe the Creator has always existed (in one form or another)”. Something cannot come from nothing. ---
**Author:** ![mdhruska](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@mdhruska](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mdhruska)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/71 "2012-06-20T11:49:08Z")
My belief is that everything is connected. That interconnectedness, to me, is God. Having that realization has become my faith. My faith has naturally outgrown the notion of religion because, religion inherently shuns interconnectedness. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/72 "2012-06-20T11:58:49Z")
> [@mdhruska](#): > > My belief is that everything is connected. That interconnectedness, to me, is God. Having that realization has become my faith. My faith has naturally outgrown the notion of religion because, religion inherently shuns interconnectedness. It also shuns any belief that does not include willful attention to human supplication. Religionists cannot stand a dispassionate universe; they want to be the center of attention, with the power to change the will of god. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/73 "2012-06-20T12:43:06Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > Since this is your assertion, then where did your creator come from? And who created the place for him/it to be? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/74 "2012-06-20T12:47:49Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > What’s more rational: To believe a creator of the Creator has always existed or that the Creator without a creator has always existed? I find it hard to understand how anyone can say there is no creator of the Creator (which would have to always have existed, an eternal Being) but believe the Creator has always existed. You can’t say “Well I don’t believe the Creator has always existed (in one form or another)”. Something cannot come from nothing. Existance doesn’t have to be “A” being Just being. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/75 "2012-06-20T12:54:02Z")
> [@kp\_72110](#): > > What’s more rational: To believe a Creator has always existed or that the Universe without a creator has always existed? I find it hard to understand how anyone can say there is no Creator (which would have to always have existed, an eternal Being) but believe the Universe has always existed. You can’t say “Well I don’t believe the universe has always existed (in one form or another)”. Something cannot come from nothing. > > You can argue/debate the nature of that Creator. But how you can deny one doesn’t exist is quite perplexing. And if you say well whomever/whatever created our universe hasn’t always existed then you go back to something coming from nothing. Because if that creator was created then by who? > > It can’t be “turtles all the way down”. There most certainly is a Creator. > > Personally when I see so much Biblical prophecy being fulfilled.. Well, my beliefs are obvious from that one statement. I’ll leave you to decide for yourself because I can’t convince you to believe in my Creator. But to deny one exists is quite “ignorant”. There is also a lot of the Bible that should have been fulfilled, that wasn’t and won’t be ,because the time has already past when it should have! Just people have decided it didn’t mean that, but there are no 2,000 year old people still living now, so what was to happen 2,000 years ago didn’t, and won’t. It is a matter of humans things to be true.! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/76 "2012-06-20T13:28:19Z")
> [@mdhruska](#): > > My belief is that everything is connected. That interconnectedness, to me, is God. Having that realization has become my faith. My faith has naturally outgrown the notion of religion because, religion inherently shuns interconnectedness. It does when religion inclides, “our religion is the one God likes best” but not all do. The Bahai, for example , teach that all religions spring from the same place. Men trying to discover God and the truth. I agree everything is connected. So if we care for each other, we are ultimately caring for ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Einsatzgroping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Einsatzgroping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Einsatzgroping)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/77 "2012-06-20T13:56:53Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > The most rational way for a believer to view God and the afterlife Rational and God / afterlife are, by definition, oxymorons. You cannot rationalise something that, by its very nature, is irrational. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/78 "2012-06-20T16:49:21Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > It does when religion inclides, “our religion is the one God likes best” but not all do. > > The Bahai, for example , teach that all religions spring from the same place. Men trying to discover God and the truth. Yet gay Bahai members are still experiencing the same non acceptance as is found in other religions. [http://www.gaybahai.net/discussion/post/153334](http://www.gaybahai.net/discussion/post/153334) ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/79 "2012-06-20T17:08:45Z")
My cite disappeared into the forum, but here is part of what is going on with Bahais: > [@](#): > The Universal House of Justice [Baha’i supreme administrative body] • Sponsored by: Amanda Respess The Baha’i Faith, a world religion that espouses many beautiful, forward thinking ideas, also unfortunately overtly condemns homosexuality and teaches that it is a spiritual “handicap.” Gay Baha’is face the loss of their Baha’i administrative rights if they are open and honest about their sexual orientation and lifestyle. Recently, the Baha’i community of Uganda participated in an interfaith effort to deport an American journalist for covering a LGBTI human rights event called, “Let Us Live in Peace.” The Baha’is of Uganda also advocated the arrest of all LGBTI individuals in Uganda for their “immorality.” Please see the following links for more information:The Universal House of Justice [Baha’i supreme administrative body] • Sponsored by: Amanda Respess The Baha’i Faith, a world religion that espouses many beautiful, forward thinking ideas, also unfortunately overtly condemns homosexuality and teaches that it is a spiritual “handicap.” Gay Baha’is face the loss of their Baha’i administrative rights if they are open and honest about their sexual orientation and lifestyle. Recently, the Baha’i community of Uganda participated in an interfaith effort to deport an American journalist for covering a LGBTI human rights event called, “Let Us Live in Peace.” The Baha’is of Uganda also advocated the arrest of all LGBTI individuals in Uganda for their “immorality.” Please see the following links for more information: > [@](#): > ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/80 "2012-06-20T19:09:35Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Existance doesn’t have to be “A” being Just being. Well actually existence has to be “E”, but we’ll put that aside for the moment. So a creator can just be “be” but the universe can’t? This is pretty much argument by definition: if something has always existed we’ll call it “the creator”. You could just as easily call it “the universe” and leave out all the implications the word creator implies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452.md?page=5)