# The most rational way for a believer to view God and the afterlife **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 17, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452 "2012-06-17T20:13:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/81 "2012-06-21T00:18:42Z")
> [@florez](#): > > My cite disappeared into the forum, but here is part of what is going on with Bahais: > > The Universal House of Justice [Baha’i supreme administrative body] > • Sponsored by: Amanda Respess > The Baha’i Faith, a world religion that espouses many beautiful, forward thinking ideas, also unfortunately overtly condemns homosexuality and teaches that it is a spiritual “handicap.” Gay Baha’is face the loss of their Baha’i administrative rights if they are open and honest about their sexual orientation and lifestyle. > > Recently, the Baha’i community of Uganda participated in an interfaith effort to deport an American journalist for covering a LGBTI human rights event called, “Let Us Live in Peace.” The Baha’is of Uganda also advocated the arrest of all LGBTI individuals in Uganda for their “immorality.” Please see the following links for more information:The Universal House of Justice [Baha’i supreme administrative body] > • Sponsored by: Amanda Respess > The Baha’i Faith, a world religion that espouses many beautiful, forward thinking ideas, also unfortunately overtly condemns homosexuality and teaches that it is a spiritual “handicap.” Gay Baha’is face the loss of their Baha’i administrative rights if they are open and honest about their sexual orientation and lifestyle. > > Recently, the Baha’i community of Uganda participated in an interfaith effort to deport an American journalist for covering a LGBTI human rights event called, “Let Us Live in Peace.” The Baha’is of Uganda also advocated the arrest of all LGBTI individuals in Uganda for their “immorality.” Please see the following links for more information: This is an area I don’t agree with them on, but it’s far different than the hateful persecution from fundamentalists. Bahai’s believe in science and the scientific evidence that sexual preference is innate rather than a choice matters. > **[Open Letter to the National Spiritual Assembly re Gays in the Baha'i Faith](https://bahai-library.com/orey_open_letter_gays)** > > Bahá'í articles, books, translations, and historical materials Since people vary I’m sure feelings and practices vary from congregation to congregation, but from Wkki; > **[Baháʼí views on homosexuality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_the_Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith)** > > The Baháʼí Faith considers homosexual sexual intimacy to be against God's will as taught by founder Baháʼu'lláh, and views homosexuality as against nature and a sickness. The organization places emphasis on what it describes as traditional family values, and marriage between a man and a woman is the only form of sexual relationship permitted for Baháʼís. With an emphasis on chastity and sexual abstinence outside of a heterosexual marriage, Baháʼí teachings prohibit p Lesbian, gay, and bisexual me... “The Bahá’í Faith has been described as a religion “ambiguous or contested on the issue of LGBT inclusion”.[10] The religion has a strong emphasis on traditional values found in Abrahamic religions, which promote chastity over sexual freedom. The Bahá’í Faith, however, leaves the application of laws of social conduct largely up to the individual, and Bahá’ís generally do not advocate for or discriminate against homosexual people” ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/82 "2012-06-21T02:51:13Z")
I was surprised by the forum in that I never knew this about the Bahai. There were letters from their leader Shoghi Effendi with “guidance” that stated “homosexuality is forbidden in the Bahai faith, that it is repulsive, abnormal, and beyond moral limits…” Also he suggests that “friends restrain them from their immorality rather then their activities overstep all bounds and become a matter of public scandal.” This is pretty clear, and also the discussion includes people’s comments about how they have been discriminated against and adversely effected by this homophobic attitude within the Bahai faith, not that it is any different in this way then many other religions. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/83 "2012-06-21T10:58:55Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Well actually existence has to be “E”, but we’ll put that aside for the moment. > > So a creator can just be “be” but the universe can’t? This is pretty much argument by definition: if something has always existed we’ll call it “the creator”. You could just as easily call it “the universe” and leave out all the implications the word creator implies. It would have to be more than the universe,it would have to be what ever exists. The universe is in existence. What doesn’t exist isn’t anything. So to exist one(or something) must first be in Existence. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/84 "2012-06-21T12:24:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But how do you know all this? I have met God > [@](#): > > And why should I take your word for it? I never suggested this, you have to find your own answers between you and God. I am stating what I have seen and heard (witnessing as allowed by this forum). My message is not listen to me, but seek it for yourself. I have faith in God’s word, seek and you shall find Me. You have answers already inside yourself everyone does, but IMHO we have to get rid of the corruption that we were taught by others to free our minds so we can connect with God. Also be open and not automatically close the door to new ideas, as by hearing new ideas we also free ourselves for us to create our own concepts and designes. As states by Socrates 'phliphophy \ is a team sport - design your own order out of the chaos. ’ ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/85 "2012-06-21T12:34:13Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Also be open and not automatically close the door to new ideas, as by hearing new ideas we also free ourselves for us to create our own concepts and designes. Has your open mind ever met an idea it didn’t accept? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/86 "2012-06-21T12:35:04Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > What does that mean? If he knows (omnipotent) the perfect way to act, but acts in any way differently, isn’t that way less than perfect? If one path can be perfect can two different paths also be perfect? Can not a perfect all powerful God take what would be a imperfect path and make it perfect? Part of God’s plan is family, we all need each other and Him (and Her for that matter). It is our ability to chose the wrong path combined with His ability to make that path the perfect path that bonds us together. We are designed to be Loved by Him and for us to Love Him and His actions out of Love for His children is what we are amazed by and thankful for. The plan is not for us to act independently, but interdependently as a family. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/87 "2012-06-21T12:38:00Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Has your open mind ever met an idea it didn’t accept? Yes, this board, in general, has a very closed mind. Speaking mainly to the atheistic/scientific leanings that to me create a ‘group think’ mentality which appears to me like the droning of the mindwashed, people who don’t think for themsevles, ignore their own life experiences and only think what they are told they should think. Their ideas and concepts I usually don’t except. This also applies to the religiously indoctrinated, which to me is the same thing. The ideas that I want to hear are the ones many people are afraid to speak, theories they have about live, souls, afterlife - those are ideas to explore. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/88 "2012-06-21T12:45:14Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > You’re posting on a message board that claims it is about fighting ignorance. Why do you think you should get a free pass for posting something that is not only untrue, but is impossible? Many people have claimed to have seen God, why are you disregarding them? Sounds like you may be on the wrong side of that ignorance line on this one. You even state it is impossible, which is a pretty darn ignorant statement in itself. Hey if you need to not believe in God for peace in your life go ahead, I’m fine with it and wish you well. But also believe this, I feel that the message of God’s Love is here to fight the ignorance on this board, it is God Himself who is fighting the ignorance so often stated here - and it is God Himself who came up with that phrase for His intentions. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/89 "2012-06-21T13:48:48Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > . . . it is God Himself who is fighting the ignorance so often stated here - and it is God Himself who came up with that phrase for His intentions. God = Cecil? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/90 "2012-06-21T13:53:22Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, this board, in general, has a very closed mind. Speaking mainly to the atheistic/scientific leanings that to me create a ‘group think’ mentality which appears to me like the droning of the mindwashed, people who don’t think for themsevles, ignore their own life experiences and only think what they are told they should think. …says the guy who has all the answers. You seem to be the one with certainty- from my experience on this board, most of us are pretty damn uncertain. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/91 "2012-06-22T00:47:49Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > God = Cecil? You get to decide your own god. It’s a personal decision and choice. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/92 "2012-06-22T00:59:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Sounds like you may be on the wrong side of that ignorance line on this one. You even state it is impossible, which is a pretty darn ignorant statement in itself. Meh. This is nothing more than the same old tired bullshit like the “You can’t say that tolerance is good, because then you’re being intolerant of intolerance” line. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/93 "2012-06-22T01:06:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > …says the guy who has all the answers. You seem to be the one with certainty- from my experience on this board, most of us are pretty damn uncertain. Knowing God does have certain advantages 😉 But it is funny as it appears quite the opposite to me (see post # 12 and 28 as just a brief example). I have not really gotten the impression that many are uncertain here. I have gotten the impression that unless you tote the main line scientific and atheistic point of view you will be ostracized and ridiculed and in some cased hated. It is actually very hard to express my views here with such overwhelming ‘discouragement’, and I do believe it is only because of God that I stay here. This is a very hard place to stay for people with differing opinion. I also want to state that sometimes I don’t want to even look at some threads, about how people have replied to me because of the history of how I have been treated for having a opinion that differs from the ‘norm’. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/94 "2012-06-22T01:14:08Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > Meh. This is nothing more than the same old tired bullshit like the “You can’t say that tolerance is good, because then you’re being intolerant of intolerance” line. This doesn’t even make sense, and you are really reaching here You make such a irrational statement stating something is impossible, though it clearly is possible. It is very clear that you are blocking out that possibility. Now why you need to I’m not sure, but I know that the very idea that God exist exist fills you with such fear that you have to lie to yourself that it is impossible. Like I said if that’s what you need to do to get through the day I have no problem with it and wish you very well. But I also know God, and I know that whatever is blocking you from acknowledging Him and/or Her is unfounded and God Loves you just as you are and holds nothing against you and never will. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/95 "2012-06-22T02:10:41Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It would have to be more than the universe,it would have to be what ever exists. The universe is in existence. What doesn’t exist isn’t anything. So to exist one(or something) must first be in Existence. I think in order to make a statement like that you have to put a few ‘dudes’ in there interrupted occasionally by deep intakes of breath. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/96 "2012-06-22T02:28:50Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > I think in order to make a statement like that you have to put a few ‘dudes’ in there interrupted occasionally by deep intakes of breath. I see what you did there.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/97 "2012-06-22T17:00:08Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > I] I derive my security from the knowledge that the physical world exists, not an existential one, yet I still strongly believe in those existential forces. Your use of the word “existential” which you fail to define in your OP, makes me laugh because it reminds me of of what I call the “appeal to big words” fallacy. The use of big, scientific-sounding words to give a veneer of credibility to a nonsensical assertion can often be seen in cheap science fiction films. In one of the many journeys to the centre of the Earth, for example, the scientist on the expedition must explain why the huge underground world is lit up as if it were on the surface. Looking around above him, he wisely intones, “It appears to be some sort of phospherous luminescent phenomenon.” There, three big words, with the prefix “lumin” meaning light, and the mystery is explained. All the members of the expedition nod in agreement and they go on their merry way to get chased by dinosaurs or whatever. Of course, nobody asks the professor to explain why phosphorous would act that way, and why there is not a single example of a cave nearer the surface having this amazing lighting. And does the light shine 24-7, or does someone shut it off? Or how often have you seen the actors in a movie suddenly stop as if they had hit something, and the kindly professor says: “Some kind of molecular force field!” There, that explains it, doesn’t it :dubious:? So how about it? What is an “existential force” anyhow? How do you know such forces exist? How do they work? Moi needs answers. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/98 "2012-06-22T17:20:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > So perhaps you would like to propose something instead of criticizing. Criticizing nutty ideas is far better than believing them. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/99 "2012-06-22T17:23:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Many people have claimed to have seen God, why are you disregarding them? Sounds like you may be on the wrong side of that ignorance line on this one. You even state it is impossible, which is a pretty darn ignorant statement in itself. > > Hey if you need to not believe in God for peace in your life go ahead, I’m fine with it and wish you well. But also believe this, I feel that the message of God’s Love is here to fight the ignorance on this board, it is God Himself who is fighting the ignorance so often stated here - and it is God Himself who came up with that phrase for His intentions. Many people claim to be god. Many people think aliens taught Egyptians to build pyramids. Many people think pandas are bears. Many people think Elvis is alive. Many people are fucking idiots. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452/100 "2012-06-22T17:31:11Z")
> [@Docta\_G](#): > > Many people think pandas are bears. [Pandas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda) are bears. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-most-rational-way-for-a-believer-to-view-god-and-the-afterlife/625452.md?page=6)