# The Motherland, Fatherland, Homeland. Who decides? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 1, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204 "2013-12-01T13:22:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/21 "2013-12-02T03:24:21Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Germany, for example, is masculine so they use Fatherland. The United States, on the other hand, is neuter so we use Homeland. I think Russia is feminine. > > 😉 Except they also use _Heimat_ (feminine) and _Heimatland_ (neuter) for “homeland.” ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/22 "2013-12-02T05:13:36Z")
Well, the French apparently say “la mùre Patrie” which appears to man (at least taking etymology into account) _the mother fatherland_. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/23 "2013-12-02T05:28:25Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Well, the French apparently say “la mùre Patrie” which appears to man (at least taking etymology into account) _the mother fatherland_. “La mùre Patrie” is usually translated into English as “the motherland”. It’s _la Patrie_ imaged as a mother-figure. Which highlights the point, I think, that nothwithstanding its etymology _la Patrie_ to a French-speaker does not evoke images of a father-figure or of fatherhood. Think of the English words “patriot”, “patrimony”, “patrician”, etc; they all ultimately come from _pater_, but fatherhood is not what leaps to your mind when you hear them. I think the same is true for _la Patrie_ in French. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/24 "2013-12-02T06:24:25Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > It was merely an aside or parenthetical comment about how something derived from “father” is a feminine, meant to be no more than that and expecting the the actual thread subject (what is it you call your country and how does that come about) to carry on. I fail to understand the frustration. > > For now, to allow the actual thread to resume unhindered, I will not post more on this particular sidetrack. When I posted about “masculine”, “feminine”, and “neuter” countries I was only joking! Surely countries don’t have genders
 Please don’t take it seriously. (I’m not directing this at \*\*JRDelirious \*\*in particular–I quoted from his/her post because it sort of summed up the whole sidetrack). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/25 "2013-12-02T07:35:24Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > In Spanish it is “fatherland” (patria) and it is feminine. So there. Not fatherland, if you include the _madre_ we get _la madre patria_ - lit motherland. Note that as pointed out by others already the root _pat-_ can refer to the father or to the parents or to tutors: the _patria potestad_/_patria potestas_ wasn’t the sole domain of the _paterfamilias_ even back in Roman times. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/26 "2013-12-02T08:31:46Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > When I posted about “masculine”, “feminine”, and “neuter” countries I was only joking! Surely countries don’t have genders
 They do in German. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/27 "2013-12-02T09:21:53Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > They do in German. and in Spanish I can think of: Los Estados Unidos - masculine, la UniĂłn Sovietica - feminine. El Reino Unido - masculine. La Santa Sede ( The Vatican) feminine, La Republica Checa - feminine, etc. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/28 "2013-12-02T10:11:31Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Not fatherland, Yes, fatherland. That is exactly what patria means. > [@Nava](#): > > if you include the _madre_ If my aunt had balls we’d be talking about my uncle wouldn’t we? > [@Nava](#): > > we get _la madre patria_ - lit motherland. That is something else. “Madre patria” is used to refer to a mother country in relation to its colonies or excolonies, not to an individual’s homeland. Spain is “[la madre patria](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7pEQX0lQV4)” to Spanish-American countries. Spain is the motherland of the American fatherlands. > [@Nava](#): > > Note that as pointed out by others already the root _pat-_ can refer to the father or to the parents or to tutors: the _patria potestad_/_patria potestas_ wasn’t the sole domain of the _paterfamilias_ even back in Roman times. Ah, the “masculine includes the feminine rule” which drives feminists crazy. It may include the feminine but the meaning of pater is father and not mother which is mater. In Spanish we say “mis padres”, for both parents even if one of them does not have balls. But that does not detract from the fact that the primary meaning is father. I guess you could say “padre” can mean “mother” under certain circumstances but not really, only by inclusion with a real father with balls and all. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/29 "2013-12-02T10:17:22Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > La Santa Sede ( The Vatican) feminine More fun: it’s both _la Santa Sede_ (feminine) and _el Vaticano_ (masculine). But in Spanish “words have gender, living beings have a sex” (RAE dixit). ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/30 "2013-12-02T11:47:01Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > More fun: it’s both _la Santa Sede_ (feminine) and _el Vaticano_ (masculine). In old Spanish proper names of lands / countries used articles. La China, la India, el PerĂș, la Argentina
 The trend is to drop the article. > [@Nava](#): > > But in Spanish “words have gender, living beings have a sex” (RAE dixit). Ah, if only some of our ignorant ministers could learn this. Domestic violence is “violencia de gĂ©nero”. Really? “Gramatical violence”, that’s what it is. The ignorance is just astounding. And [these are the people who govern the country](http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibiana_A%C3%ADdo#Controversias). And when they don’t use “violencia de gĂ©nero” they use “violencia machista” just so that we all know that men are the bad guys and women are incapable of any violence or anything bad. They are just victims of those bad, bad guys. Language manipulation at its finest. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/31 "2013-12-02T12:10:44Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > In old Spanish proper names of lands / countries used articles. La China, la India, el PerĂș, la Argentina
 The trend is to drop the article. And we can also still say _la RepĂșblica Argentina_. It’s just one of those “collocation” things, “this word goes with this word beeeeee-cause.” The stupid name on that law is what prompted the polite remarks from the Academy and a more-in-his-style article from PĂ©rez-Reverte which was just fucking [beautiful](http://www.elcastellano.org/noticia.php?id=23). My mother usually thinks he uses too many dirty words but in this case she said he was overly restrained. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/32 "2013-12-02T20:33:18Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > It’s just like knowing which article to use in German (_der, die,_ or _das_). You basically have to memorize which term to use unless you happen to know the gender of the country (masculine, feminine, or neuter). > > Germany, for example, is masculine so they use Fatherland. The United States, on the other hand, is neuter so we use Homeland. I think Russia is feminine. > > 😉 I realise you were joking, but I can see that later posters took this seriously. So just in the interest of fighting ignorance, “Deutschland” is neuter (“das Deutschland”), not masculine. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/33 "2013-12-02T20:53:34Z")
I associate the English word “Fatherland” with right-wing nationalism, authoritarianism and in particular Nazi Germany. Is this association widespread among speakers of languages other than English? I am thinking of an occasion when a Finnish friend disapproved of an inscription on an monument that referred to “isĂ€nmaa” (fatherland), implying that it was a term associated with the authoritarian pre-war and wartime government. (Incidentally, Finnish has no gender, so the grammatical explanation certainly fails in this case!) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/34 "2013-12-03T01:31:22Z")
So can we safely say “fatherland” is used when they’re all he-men like the Germans and “motherland” when they’re all girly men like the French? Or is that not correct either? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/35 "2013-12-04T13:51:47Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I associate the English word “Fatherland” with right-wing nationalism, authoritarianism and in particular Nazi Germany. Is this association widespread among speakers of languages other than English? > > ) Like I mentioned, in Spanish it’s a pretty commonplace usage and does not carry the implications. In English has the connotation because it never really developed a father/mother/home-land term (former metropolitan powers are called “mother country”) and became widely published only in the WW2 context. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204/36 "2013-12-04T14:28:43Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I am thinking of an occasion when a Finnish friend disapproved of an inscription on an monument that referred to “isĂ€nmaa” (fatherland), implying that it was a term associated with the authoritarian pre-war and wartime government. What term would he prefer instead? For what it’s worth, in Swedish it’s _fĂ€derneslandet_, which I would translate as the land of our fathers and _fedrelandet/fĂŠdrelandet_ in the other Scandinavian languages, which I think can be interpreted as both Land of our fathers and Fatherland. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-motherland-fatherland-homeland-who-decides/675204.md?page=1)