# The Movie "Seven"--What did I miss? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 4, 2000, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976 "2000-09-04T15:36:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/1 "2000-09-04T15:36:14Z")
Having a fairly squeamish constitution, I did not see this film when it first came out…there was so much talk about the level of gore and bloodshed that I knew it wouldn’t be for me. However, it was on TV the other night, and I was able to stomach that (obviously butchered) version. The editing left certain parts very confused, however. Mainly, what the heck happened to the hooker? All I saw was a guy screaming “Get this off of me!” I had no idea what “this” was…a dildo? What? And how was she killed? Screwed to death? Basically, that entire scene was so butchered that all I could tell (after some time) was that the john had somehow been made to kill the hooker. I also didn’t understand the ending (SPOILER for anyone who hasn’t seen it). In all the other murders, Spacey killed them because _they_ were guilty of the determined deadly sin. But…Gwyneth wasn’t guilty of anything. Why was she killed because of envy? Spacey said it was due to his own envy that she had to die. This is inconsistent with the rest of the film. And wrath–whose sin was that, then? Brad Pitt’s, or Spacey’s? Spacey died, but Pitt killed him; however, Spacey was certainly full of wrath. The other thing is, Spacey was meticulous with each of the murders, taking over a year to kill some of his victims. But killing Gwyneth just seemed a hasty decision on his part, inconsistent with his character. Okay, I am taking this way too seriously. But still, I’d like to know your input. And there is no way I will rent the unedited version–it was creepy enough without the gruesome details! ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/2 "2000-09-04T15:46:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ruffian \* > **The editing left certain parts very confused, however. Mainly, what the heck happened to the hooker?** Basically, the film version was very vague (I’d say “butchered,” too, but the original screenplay was intentionally vague on her execution). What happened is that John Doe (Spacey) had a custom-made dildo (with knives and other sharp objects) and forced the guy to use it on the hooker, knowing it was going to kill her. And, it did. > [@](#): > > \*\*I also didn’t understand the ending (SPOILER for anyone who hasn’t seen it). In all the other murders, Spacey killed them because _they_ were guilty of the determined deadly sin. \*\* **No.** They were killed because they _represented_ one of the sins, not that they were necessarily guilty about it (note the “sloth” victim – that was Doe’s doing that he was so slothenly). Gwyneth, and Doe himself, were killed because they represented the final two sins: envy and wrath. I thought it was brilliantly conceived. > [@](#): > > \*\*Okay, I am taking this way too seriously. But still, I’d like to know your input. And there is no way I will rent the unedited version–it was creepy enough without the gruesome details! \*\* This is a film worth taking very seriously. It was a graphically rendered version of someone’s interpretation of the seven deadly sins. Kieslowski filmed the Ten Commandments in a different style (as the _Dekalog_), but Fincher’s _Seven_ deserves to be seen as it was, not as a broadcast network decides to show it. I unequivocally state that _Seven_ is a great movie, and definitely one of my top ten films of the 1990s. I can’t wait for the new DVD edition to come out this fall. ---
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/3 "2000-09-04T15:50:19Z")
(and, ewwwwwwwww…) One of these days, if I’m feeling particularly iron-stomached and fearless, I may rent the original. Maybe. With the Llama there. And pillows. And my big teddy bear. And a blanket to hide behind. And extra locks on the doors. ---
**Author:** ![lolagranola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ea5d25/32.png) [@lolagranola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lolagranola)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/4 "2000-09-04T15:59:54Z")
I watched it on video, and I use that term loosely. I had to leave the room for ALL of the deaths, and had everyone else tell me what happened. I did think that ending was good, in the way that it fit the film. Clever, and appropriately horrifying. ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/5 "2000-09-04T16:13:56Z")
I agree with everything **Montfort** said, apart from the bit about who represented which sin. IMO: Spacey = envy Pitt = wrath Paltrow = collateral damage I would back this up with a quotation from the excellent book by Richard Dyer (_Seven_, British Film Institute Modern Classics, 1999), but I can’t seem to find my copy at the moment. Anyway, it’s certainly worth reading if you’re interested in the film. ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/6 "2000-09-04T16:37:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TomH \* > \*\*I agree with everything **Montfort** said, apart from the bit about who represented which sin. IMO: > > Spacey = envy > Pitt = wrath > Paltrow = collateral damage\*\* Huh? Which sin is collateral damage? Her character was killed because Spacey’s envied Pitt’s perfect life. It was stated as such very obviously. Her death was **envy**. Pitt’s wasn’t killed, but he killed Spacey’s out of **wrath**. I’ll never forget seeing this film at the Uptown theatre in DC on opening night in 1995. I was chilled, and spent a lot time thinking about it – the mark of a great film. ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/7 "2000-09-04T16:43:19Z")
I think that Paltrow died not representing a sin, but to provoke Pitt to kill Spacey. Spacey was envy and had to die for it, and he told Pitt to become wrath. It definitely needs to be seen in its unedited version for the full effect. side note: I read in Entertainment Weekly that the studio wanted a happier ending, but Pitt said he wouldn’t film any other ending than the one scripted. ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/8 "2000-09-04T16:49:29Z")
**Bratman007** : If Paltrow was killed to provoke Pitt, who represented the **envy** sin? And, **David Fincher** directed _Seven_, not Brat Pitt. I have the original draft of Andrew Kevin Walker’s screenplay, as well as the published final draft. Both are very interesting, as the final scene shifted from an urban to rural environment. But, the sins were similar. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/9 "2000-09-04T17:01:56Z")
**TomH** is right. John Doe (Spacey) envied Pitt’s perfect life, and tried to have it for his own. This attempt “didn’t work out” and led to Paltrow’s death. For his sin of envy, Spacey was punished (shot in the face by Brad Pitt’s character). In shooting Spacey, Pitt gave in to wrath. He wasn’t killed for his sin, but one could argue that the dead wife, ruined career and possible insanity were equivalently severe. One could also argue that Pitt’s wrath led to Paltrow’s death when Pitt lost his temper with the reporter (who was actually Spacey) and shouted out his name at him. So, Spacey committed the sin of envy and was punished. Pitt committed the sin of wrath and was punished. Paltrow was killed as part of Pitt’s punishment, despite the fact that she had committed no sin of her own. (And of course because Spacey knew that her death would provoke all the punishments to happen as they should.) ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/10 "2000-09-04T17:03:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Montfort \* > **Bratman007** : If Paltrow was killed to provoke Pitt, who represented the **envy** sin? Spacey represented envy, since he envied Pitt’s life. He set it up to provoke Pitt (wrath) to kill him. Why else would he ship the head to the middle of nowhere to let Pitt see it? Spacey’s character _wanted_ to piss off Pitt so he would kill him. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/11 "2000-09-04T17:23:05Z")
well, ruffian, i read part of the book before i went to see it in the movies. i got up to sloth in the book before i couldn’t take it anymore. i read the last three chapters and couldn’t sleep that night. i wore my glasses to the theatr so i could whip them off at the parts i didn’t want to see. we went on opening day. i left the theatr when paltrow was delivered to pitt. all the people left the theatr staggering. it was better seeing their reaction to the ending than seeing the ending. my suggestion is to buy the book, read it outside on a very bright sunny day. the book really gets into the killers brain and gives you a bit of an idea of what will happen to pitt’s character after he kills the killer. then you can rent the movie 'cause it won’t scare you. this is one of the few times the movie lives up to the book. ---
**Author:** ![Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6de8d8/32.png) [@Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilgore_Trout_1)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/12 "2000-09-04T17:34:54Z")
> [@](#): > > And, David Fincher directed Seven, not Brat Pitt. i’m sure he understands this. actors often have a lot of pull in the production of a film. mr. pitt could agree to do the movie if the scene goes as scripted, no different. if they decide to change it, he can leave. nobody wants that, and everyone knows the ending is a good ending anyway, so tada. it remains. i’m not saying that is how it happened in this particular case, but i wouldn’t be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/13 "2000-09-04T17:39:29Z")
What Kilgore said, that’s what I meant by Pitt not doing another ending. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/14 "2000-09-04T17:41:29Z")
I agree, Doe was killed for his envy. He said so before he died. ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/15 "2000-09-04T19:32:23Z")
Again, I’ll say that those who were killed _represented_ the seven different sins, and weren’t necessarily guilty of them. After all, what did cute little Gwynnie do to be guilty of a sin? She didn’t do anything, but she _represented_ the envy that Spacey’s character had for Pitt’s character. So, she was killed to represent **envy**. Then, when Spacey confessed this to Pitt, he knew Mr. Macho Cop would blow his top and blow Spacey’s head off, in a fit of **wrath**. And, that’s exactly what happened. To recap, the sins and the characters who died, corresponding to them: 1. Gluttony - the fat man in the kitchen 2. Greed - the lawyer 3. Sloth - the bedridden junkie 4. Lust - the prostitute 5. Pride - the beautiful woman 6. Envy - Gwyneth Paltrow’s character 7. Wrath - John Doe (Spacey) ---
**Author:** ![Diesel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Diesel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diesel)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/16 "2000-09-04T20:12:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Montfort \* > \*\*To recap, the sins and the characters who died, corresponding to them: > > 1. Gluttony - the fat man in the kitchen > 2. Greed - the lawyer > 3. Sloth - the bedridden junkie > 4. Lust - the prostitute > 5. Pride - the beautiful woman > 6. Envy - Gwyneth Paltrow’s character > 7. Wrath - John Doe (Spacey) \*\* Tracy (Paltrow) did not die because she was envious. She was part of John Doe’s sin of envy. He envied Detective Mills’ life so much that if he couldn’t have it, he would take it away from Mills. When Mills discoverred that his wife was dead, he murderred Doe in a fit of rage (or wrath, if you will) and was punished by having his life taken away from him (career, wife, etc.). So it would actually go 1. Envy - John Doe 2. Wrath - Mills (Brad Pitt) because they were the ones who comitted said sins and were punished accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/17 "2000-09-04T20:16:45Z")
I’m gonna have to go out and rent this again, but doesn’t Spacey’s character _say_ he is envy right before he tell Pitt’s character to “become wrath”? ---
**Author:** ![ASD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c68b51/32.png) [@ASD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASD)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/18 "2000-09-04T20:27:07Z")
An easier way to think about it is to think of people being punished for their sins rather than being murdered. For the majority of the people being killed was the punishment, but you could argue that the John was also punished for lust (some major psychological damge there) and Mills (Brad Pitt) was punished for his wrath (career, wife, etc). Gwyneth was just a side effect and did not directly exhibit a sin. The pride girl could have taken the punishment of having no nose for her pride instead of dying (but showed exactly how prideful she was). But John Doe was definately the one being punished by being envy, because otherwise it wouldn’t have mattered if he was shot. If gwyneth was killed for representing evil, then brad pitt would already have been punished for wrath (losing his wife) and john doe would have won. But if he is envy than only his death would complete the whole plan. Also–it wasn’t really a dildo. They showed a picture of it in the original cut if I remember correctly and it was a leather harness with razor blades on it. So it basically cut her insides so badly that it killed her. ---
**Author:** ![ASD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c68b51/32.png) [@ASD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASD)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/19 "2000-09-04T20:28:54Z")
I meant if Gwyneth was representing envy, not evil! My brain works faster than my fingers sometimes ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2000, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976/20 "2000-09-04T20:36:46Z")
[hijack] Morgan Freeman’s research scene. Backgound music: _Air on the G String_. Freeman pulls a volume of _The Canterbury Tales_ off a shelf. Am I the only one who yelled out “A Whiter Shade of Pale!”? [/hijack] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-seven-what-did-i-miss/31976.md?page=2)