# The Movie "Zulu" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 1, 2007, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298 "2007-06-01T03:54:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/21 "2007-06-01T19:11:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Despite his role as official cockney, producers almost didn’t see it that way. Caine lost a part as a cockney in “Zulu,” only to be cast in his first big movie role as aristocratic snob Lieutenant Bromhead. Speaking in an upper-class accent that contained a wafer’s edge of parody, Caine modeled himself physically on Prince Philip, clasping his hands behind his back in the manner of “a powerful man and well guarded so he did not have to be ready to defend himself as the unguarded lower orders do. He never had to open doors or do other mundane things for himself.” The response from a senior Paramount executive in London who saw the rushes was a telegram that read: “ACTOR PLAYING BROMHEAD SO BAD HE DOESN’T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH HANDS … SUGGEST YOU REPLACE HIM.” [http://dir.salon.com/story/people/bc/2000/10/03/caine/index.html?pn=2](http://dir.salon.com/story/people/bc/2000/10/03/caine/index.html?pn=2) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/22 "2007-06-01T19:14:10Z")
I rate this film as “fanfuckingtastic” a **9.5.** 🆒 Love it! ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/23 "2007-06-01T19:23:49Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Well, it was most likely because red was the cheapest dye of the time. [/QUOTE] The red dye used for much of the red coats was Cochineal, made from a small insect found in southern Mexico. It was, by weight, more valuable than silver. In fact, cochineal was a major target for British privateers waylaying spanish ships. I think the red coats may have been chosen because it’s a really nice color. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/24 "2007-06-01T19:32:22Z")
[QUOTE=UncleRojelio] I’m blanking on this reference. Back to the OP, I have the movie on DVD and love it. I’ve always found the Zulu chants chillingly haunting. I can only imagine what it would have been like to have been a British soldier hearing 4,000 of the most fearsome warriors on the planet singing about how they were going to kill you. [/QUOTE] Oh I don’t know, I consider the maurading English army as being the most fearsome warriors on the planet. What with their conquering a third of the globe and all. What makes it even more interesting is that the battle too place after a significant Zulu victory over English and Boers (I believe). ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/25 "2007-06-01T19:41:02Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] What makes it even more interesting is that the battle too place after a significant Zulu victory over English and Boers (I believe). [/QUOTE] [Islandlwana.](http://www.britishbattles.com/zulu-war/isandlwana.htm) Subject of the prequel movie _Zulu Dawn_. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/26 "2007-06-01T19:41:15Z")
I remember someone perpetuating the “noble savage” archetype by talking about how screwed the white guys were if they got into hand to hand because the Zulus were better one on one in the close combat. I had to educate him in the reality of bayonet drill. A rifle with bayonet was actually better for close fighting than the little slashing spear and hide shield the Zulus carried. It was carried by a man who was educated in the proper, most effective, use of that weapon in close quarters and who had to practice using it quite a lot. In a one-on one situation, it was far from a foregone conclusion that whitey was going down. More like 50-50. The real reason the Brits were screwed in close quarters was the 4,000 to 100 disparity. An empty rifle still makes a fine weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/27 "2007-06-01T19:43:34Z")
[QUOTE=Hypno-Toad] The red dye used for much of the red coats was Cochineal, made from a small insect found in southern Mexico. It was, by weight, more valuable than silver. In fact, cochineal was a major target for British privateers waylaying spanish ships. I think the red coats may have been chosen because it’s a really nice color. [/QUOTE] Ahem. No. Red Dye in Cromwell’s era was made through a combination of bran liquor, Alum, madder and Argol (tartric acid). It is a natural red dye, thus prone to fading. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/28 "2007-06-01T19:55:10Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Ahem. No. Red Dye in Cromwell’s era was made through a combination of bran liquor, Alum, madder and Argol (tartric acid). It is a natural red dye, thus prone to fading. [/QUOTE] British soldiers did not stop wearing red coats after Cromwell. Different sources were used. You’re almost surely right about the common soldiers uniforms being dyed with inferior material. But officers got the good stuff. But as cochineal supplies got cheaper over the decades (More like centuries!) it was more and more often used for even the common soldiers gear. But then it was replaced in the mid 1800’s by purely chemical aniline dyes. [From Here](http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Red-Empire-Espionage-Desire/dp/0060522755/ref=sr_1_1/105-0675017-8917264?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180727598&sr=1-1) ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/29 "2007-06-01T20:46:06Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] Oh I don’t know, I consider the maurading English army as being the most fearsome warriors on the planet. What with their conquering a third of the globe and all. [/QUOTE] All the more reason why they would probably have a very clear understanding of how screwed were. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/30 "2007-06-01T21:24:12Z")
[QUOTE=UncleRojelio] All the more reason why they would probably have a very clear understanding of how screwed were. [/QUOTE] Or how desperate the situation was. My point was, I would consider a fully trained English army as being considerably more dangerous than an equal or even larger Zulu army or for that matter (at the time we are discussing) pretty much any other army in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/31 "2007-06-01T21:28:21Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] Oh I don’t know, I consider the maurading English army as being the most fearsome warriors on the planet. What with their conquering a third of the globe and all. [/QUOTE] They had better weapons, better equipment, better organization and so on. It wasn’t a matter of them being better warriors ( although I’m sure they often were ), but them having a better military machine. And the movie is excellent. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/32 "2007-06-01T21:31:15Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] They had better weapons, better equipment, better organization and so on. It wasn’t a matter of them being better warriors, but them having a better military machine. And the movie is excellent. [/QUOTE] Which makes them the more fearsome warriors in terms of who is actually going to do you the most harm. Note that many of the Zulus also had rifles as well. In terms of ferocity generally, the British were an incredibly successful military force even without the advantage of guns . ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/33 "2007-06-01T21:46:48Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] In terms of ferocity generally, the British were an incredibly successful military force even without the advantage of guns. [/QUOTE] Not a universally held opinion. 😃 _Come tell us how you slew Those brave Arabs two by two Like the Zulus they had spears and bows and arrows, How you bravely slew each one With your sixteen pounder gun And you frightened them poor natives to their marrow._ ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/34 "2007-06-01T21:55:26Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Not a universally held opinion. 😃 _Come tell us how you slew Those brave Arabs two by two Like the Zulus they had spears and bows and arrows, How you bravely slew each one With your sixteen pounder gun And you frightened them poor natives to their marrow._ [/QUOTE] Well yea, because they lost 🙂 I’m Irish so I’m not much of a fan of British imperalism. Fact remains, however, is that they were very successful. As such, I consider them to be the more fearsome warrriors than the Zulu’s or the Irish for that matter. When it comes to war, it’s winning that counts. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/35 "2007-06-01T22:38:13Z")
I wouldn’t call them _fearsome_ so much as I would _efficient_. That I’ll grant the British Army any day of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/36 "2007-06-02T00:24:09Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] I wouldn’t call them _fearsome_ so much as I would _efficient_. That I’ll grant the British Army any day of the week. [/QUOTE] Winning most of the time is fearsome enough for me. Actually, it’s all that matters imho. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/37 "2007-06-02T05:43:22Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] What was the point of the British standing and fighting? was retreat not an option (the Zulus would have caught them and massacred them on the open plains)? [/QUOTE] As has been mentioned, a Zulu army of 12,000 had just attacked and almost wiped out a British force of 1,700 at nearby Isandhlwana. (There were only 400 survivors, including 80 Europeans. I believe it was the worst single defeat ever suffered by a colonial army against native forces.) The defenders at Rorke’s drift were warned by a few survivors who managed to make it there. Defending the site was their best option. If they had tried to flee they certainly would have been wiped out. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/38 "2007-06-02T06:02:43Z")
The local secondary PBS station showed it a couple years running during their celebration of Black History Month. While I can accept the bravery of the Zulu, I’m at a loss going further how this movie–or event–fit in with the rest of the celebration. OTOH, what other movie shows Advancing by Ranks and how effective it can be? (edited to add) Oh, you guys used to multiple-shot weapons don’t need to know how to do that, do you? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/39 "2007-06-02T06:11:13Z")
So I was inspired to sit down and watch _Zulu_ again tonight. Every time some ordered “Fire at will”, I couldn’t help thinking, “Which one is Will and why do they hate him so?” ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2007, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298/40 "2007-06-02T06:15:55Z")
Agree with Lochdale. Of course, an amazingly high percentage of the thin red line in the 19th century was non-English. Mostly, that means Scottish and Irish. Highlander regiments did some amazing things in the Crimea and India. And, even if you discount the place of birth of its general, the Peninsular army in the Napoleonic wars was largely Irish. And the Rorke’s Drift forces? Welsh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-movie-zulu/406298.md?page=3)