# The Mueller investigation leads to a Trump impeachment -- How does it go down? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636 "2017-08-02T16:15:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/41 "2017-08-03T13:21:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > My bet is that Mueller gives Rosenstein his findings, who immediately gives them to select House and Senate members in a closed meeting. Ryan throws in the towel and allows for impeachment to proceed and it passes overwhelmingly. McConnell walks in the Oval Office and tells Donald he can either resign or be convicted. Donald signs a pardon for himself, says fuck this shit I’m out of here, and tweets his resignation while blaming Obama for everything. Mueller convenes a grand jury and presents the case to them, Donald is indicted and presents his pardon to a federal judge. The judge dismisses the case, Mueller appeals and the case goes to the Supreme Court. In a precedent-setting vote, they declare that presidents may not pardon themselves and the case goes to trial. Donald is convicted and sentenced to life in prison. Jared Kushner is found guilty of corruption under New York law and is sentenced to life. Ivanka divorces him and marries a gangster rapper. LOL. I think it really depends on the popularity of the GOP congress, which is sinking like a rock at the moment and it’s probably got more to do with anger among the tea party types who are pissed at the inability of the GOP to repeal Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/42 "2017-08-03T13:44:23Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > There’s no guarantee that it would work any better for the democrats than for the republicans. What the democrats would have post-impeachment is an orangutan man who feels invincible. He’d probably spend his remaining days in the Oval Office binge-watching TV and stuffing sacks with everything that isn’t nailed down in the White House and any other piece of government property they have access to. That’s better than letting Pence-Ryan dismantle healthcare, environmental protection, and the very social contract. BTW Trump’s net approval (approve % minus disapprove %) among whites without a college degree — his core demographic — has fallen from +26 in March to -7. :eek: 🙂 That’s “minus 7” with an M. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/43 "2017-08-03T15:13:56Z")
It doesn’t matter if pardons work the way Trump wants then to work or not, if the real goal is to throw a bucket of sand into the Congressworks. If he declares that he his pardoning himself, his family and his cronies from all past and future unnamed crimes, then Congress is going to spend the rest of his administration fighting over what to do and how to do it, by which time the he can say “It doesn’t fucking matter, because I am outta here. Losers!” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/44 "2017-08-03T15:56:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > if the real goal is to throw a bucket of sand into the Congressworks And \*finally \*prevent them from getting anything done? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/45 "2017-08-03T18:51:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Ivanka divorces him and marries a gangster rapper. Hey, that could happen anyway. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/46 "2017-08-03T23:24:29Z")
Is there any reason Trump can’t announce “I pardon everyone I know for all past (federal) crimes!” (Or “everyone everywhere”, even) and have it take? 'Cause if I was Trump, the minute anybody hinted they were going to impeach me, I’d threaten to announce that in the last minutes prior to the impeachment vote. I’d threaten this because I’m an asshole, but he’s one too, so it seems plausible he might do it if he’s able to muster enough brain cells to think of it. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/47 "2017-08-03T23:36:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Ivanka divorces him and marries a gangster rapper. Isn’t the Mooch gonna be single? Oh, yeah, too short… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/48 "2017-08-03T23:40:59Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Isn’t the Mooch gonna be single? Oh, yeah, too short… Rumor has him seeing Fox’s leg model Kim Guifoyle. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/49 "2017-08-03T23:41:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Rumor has him seeing Fox’s leg model Kim Guifoyle. again, too short according to Roger Stone. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/50 "2017-08-03T23:47:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Is there any reason Trump can’t announce “I pardon everyone I know for all past (federal) crimes!” (Or “everyone everywhere”, even) and have it take? > > 'Cause if I was Trump, the minute anybody hinted they were going to impeach me, I’d threaten to announce that in the last minutes prior to the impeachment vote. I’d threaten this because I’m an asshole, but he’s one too, so it seems plausible he might do it if he’s able to muster enough brain cells to think of it. Whatever he tries to do, it seems likely that after we’re shut of him, some new laws are going to be proposed—as when, after JFK’s death, there was a collective urge to stop Presidents from appointing their relatives to Cabinet posts. There’s a whole lot of things we’ve trusted Presidents to do right, that we won’t want to leave up to trust anymore. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/51 "2017-08-03T23:52:41Z")
**Bricker** , a legal question, if you will: Say Trump issues blanket pardons for everybody. Then these people, lacking 5th Amendment protection, are forced to testify before Congress. This testimony is picked up by 50 State AGs, who immediately prepare indictments for anybody and everybody who ever set foot in their state during the “criminal period.” At that point these guys are fucked, right? All the evidence and testimony is fair game for State AGs? New York, Florida, etc. can go after them with impunity? ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/52 "2017-08-03T23:52:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It doesn’t matter if pardons work the way Trump wants then to work or not, if the real goal is to throw a bucket of sand into the Congressworks. If he declares that he his pardoning himself, his family and his cronies from all past and future unnamed crimes, then Congress is going to spend the rest of his administration fighting over what to do and how to do it, by which time the he can say “It doesn’t fucking matter, because I am outta here. Losers!” As I mentioned in another thread, I’m still thinking that Mueller has found evidence of money laundering, he has already subpoenaed Deutsche Bank. If he can track even a couple bucks through there, and send a nice 'gator skin briefcase with a copy containing yellow highlights to Fraulein Merkel, Trump’s Pardons won’t do shit in Berlin. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/53 "2017-08-03T23:59:55Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > as when, after JFK’s death, there was a collective urge to stop Presidents from appointing their relatives to Cabinet posts. How did that work out? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/54 "2017-08-04T00:10:10Z")
It worked as intended. No president since has appointed relatives to Cabinet posts. The posts to which Trump has appointed his relatives have all been outside of the cabinet. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/55 "2017-08-04T00:48:00Z")
If Trump actually is guilty of serious things that he suspects Mueller is going to, or already has, uncover, then what is his best move right now? ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/56 "2017-08-04T01:07:02Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > If Trump actually is guilty of serious things that he suspects Mueller is going to, or already has, uncover, then what is his best move right now? Perhaps Edward Snowden is looking for a roomie? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/57 "2017-08-04T14:20:07Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > **Bricker** , a legal question, if you will: Say Trump issues blanket pardons for everybody. Then these people, lacking 5th Amendment protection, are forced to testify before Congress. This testimony is picked up by 50 State AGs, who immediately prepare indictments for anybody and everybody who ever set foot in their state during the “criminal period.” At that point these guys are fucked, right? All the evidence and testimony is fair game for State AGs? New York, Florida, etc. can go after them with impunity? No. The Fifth Amendment protects against compelled testimony being used against a defendant. One jurisdiction in our federal system may not compel a witness to give testimony which might incriminate him under the laws of another jurisdiction. This was made clear in _Murphy v. Waterfront Commission_. The state AGs can prosecute any violations of state law, to be sure, but the testimony given by the accused in federal court could not be used against him in state court, not could evidence derived from that testimony be used, and the burden rests on the government to prove the evidence was NOT derived from the testimony (_Kastigar v. US_). This is true only in your scenario. If the accused chooses to testify in a federal proceeding, as opposed to being compelled, then his testimony is fair game in state court. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/58 "2017-08-04T14:27:11Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Whatever he tries to do, it seems likely that after we’re shut of him, some new laws are going to be proposed—as when, after JFK’s death, there was a collective urge to stop Presidents from appointing their relatives to Cabinet posts. > > There’s a whole lot of things we’ve trusted Presidents to do right, that we won’t want to leave up to trust anymore. It might well be that wholesale abuse of the power would give rise to Congressional support for a constitutional amendment of some kind. But since the pardon power arises from Article II, Section 2 of the United States Constitution, Congress cannot constrain it by passing laws. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/59 "2017-08-04T14:31:05Z")
August 4th: Mueller Impanels Grand Jury; Begins Issuing Subpoenas. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636/60 "2017-08-04T15:17:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But since the pardon power arises from Article II, Section 2 of the United States Constitution, Congress cannot constrain it by passing laws. Sure it can. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the pardon power is the sort of Presidential power that survives scrutiny under Jackson’s “third category” in Youngstown. This only means that Congress cannot prevent the President from using it. It does not mean Congress cannot punish the President for using it. At a minimum, Congress could pass a bill saying it will not, say, appropriate money to the executive branch if the President issues this or that kind of pardon. It could also, potentially, impose criminal liability for certain kinds of exercise of the pardon power. Just as Congress could charge the President or his subordinates with murder for sending the military to murder his political opponents, so too could they write a statute that makes it obstruction of justice to issue certain pardons in certain circumstances. The two issues would be whether the President can be charged with a crime and whether he can pardon himself, but neither is settled and I think there are pretty good arguments that he can be charged with a crime and cannot pardon himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mueller-investigation-leads-to-a-trump-impeachment-how-does-it-go-down/792636.md?page=4)