# The murder of a rapist? Or "gay panic" killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441 "2011-04-15T02:51:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/21 "2011-04-15T05:29:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “Too incapacitated” does not mean any level of intoxication at all. There are levels of intoxication. I’ve made it pretty clear in those threads that by “too incapacitated,” I’m talking about too drunk to comprehend whats going on or passed out. Not just drunk. And how is this different to what Griffin is claiming? And you pretty unequivocally did say that a woman too drunk to give consent is raped. Then you said is this thread that you never said such a thing. :rolleyes: Or is it only rape when it happens to a girl and is consensual sex when it happens to a guy? You don’t have any sons right? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/22 "2011-04-15T05:31:51Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > And how is this different to what Griffin is claiming? Griffin didn’t claim anything. His girlfriend did, and not very credibly. Plus the murder victim was also allegedly drunk at the time, so if you think drunk = raped (which I don’t), then you have to think Griffin is a rapist. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/23 "2011-04-15T05:38:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Griffin didn’t claim anything. His girlfriend did, and not very credibly. Plus the murder victim was also allegedly drunk at the time, \*\*so if you think drunk = raped \*\*(which I don’t), then you have to think Griffin is a rapist. That’s not what you said in an earlier thread. For what it’s worth, I DON’T think Griffin was raped… it was just the seeming inconsistency in your position that hit me. In one thread you say that a woman can be too drunk to consent, yet in this thread you are saying unequivocally that although the testimony (and I agree not credible) is that he WAS too drunk to consent he was NOT raped. You don’t find this strange at all? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/24 "2011-04-15T05:41:10Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > In one thread you say that a woman can be too drunk to consent, yet in this thread you are saying unequivocally that although the testimony (and I agree not credible) is that he WAS too drunk to consent he was NOT raped. **DtC** said he didn’t find Griffiths claims credible, not that it was categorically impossible for him to have been too drunk to consent. Your trying to hard to find a contradiction thats not there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/25 "2011-04-15T14:07:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Griffin testified that he had no memory of a sexual assault. The jury doesn’t seem to have bought it, and there’s no compelling reason to believe _anything_ necessarily happened sexually. It was a defense strategy in a murder trial that failed to convince the jury. I don’t agree with your conclusion that the jury “didn’t buy” the sexual assault. The jury could well have concluded that the sexual assault happened, but still convicted him of murder. He didn’t remember the assualt himself, which lessens the claim that he was operating in some diminished capacity induced by rage over the assault, and in the final analysis, he could have been sodomized for 12 straight hours by the victim and a troupe of acrobatic albinos, and that’s still no legal justification for committing murder two days later. The jury might have disbelieved the sexual assault story in its entirety, or they might have believed some of it, or they might have believed every word of it, and still voted guilty of murder. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/26 "2011-04-15T14:22:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > in the final analysis, he could have been sodomized for 12 straight hours by the victim and a troupe of acrobatic albinos Worst. Cirque du Soleil show. EVER. It’s always hard for me to form an opinion of “what happened” based on what is reported about what was said in and out of court; the parties involved are too biased and have too much at stake, and the reporters will play up the more sensational aspects of the case. But from what’s been reported here, I’m not sure I would have considered the rape story sufficiently credible to function as mitigation for the murder. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/27 "2011-04-15T22:21:58Z")
Verdict is in, Griffin has been convicted of murder. He faces 45 to 65 years in prison. I’m kind of surprised he wasn’t given a somewhat lighter sentence. I guess his story of the sexual assault was not really believed. Still, I don’t understand why else he would have killed Belton. Griffin is not some hyper-macho “kill the queer” bigoted goon, despite the evil-looking picture and the constantly-repeated label of “ex-Marine” as if that is the only thing that defines him as a person. Like I said, he never struck me as the kind of guy who was homophobic at all, let alone enough to _kill_ a man because he regretted a sexual encounter with him. I think this trial would have been totally, totally different if Griffin were female and Belton were heterosexual. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/28 "2011-04-16T00:11:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > A consensual sex act sounds credible to me. Rape does not. What isn’t credible about him being too drunk to consent? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/29 "2011-04-16T01:04:38Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Still, I don’t understand why else he would have killed Belton. In a word? Regret. He may have been a liberal and tolerant guy, but my guess is it’s one thing to have those views in the abstract and another to find yourself in a really confusing situation like this. I don’t think this is really anything like a gay panic or transgender panic defense. Whether he was raped or just very remorseful about consensual sex, Griffin might’ve been very emotional when he went to see Belton two days later. But that’s not panic. The idea of the panic defense is that the defendant is so surprised and upset that upon learning the person is gay/TG/whatever, they lose control and aren’t responsible for the killing. You can’t say that happened here. Whatever happened between those guys, Griffin had two days to think about it and brought a weapon when he went to see Belton. Confronting someone that way and bringing a deadly weapon is stupid. If he thought he was raped, going to the police would have been the thing to do. I don’t know if there would have been grounds for a criminal case even if it was rape, but it would have been a place to start _and_ the fact that Griffin did not go to the police makes you think he might’ve wanted to keep the sex a secret. I doubt we’ll ever really know what happened here, and it’s possible that Griffin’s war history also contributed to what happened. In any case I’m sorry for what you’re going through as you try to figure out how your friend wound up in this situation, **Argent Towers**. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/30 "2011-04-16T02:11:13Z")
Yeah, it’s really been bothering me lately. Of course I should be more bothered by the death of Belton, but that’s just not how it plays out when you knew the murderer personally and not the victim. Belton sounds like he was a good guy, aside from whatever it was that he did with Griffin; whatever it was, he certainly didn’t deserve to die from it. Griffin always seemed like a happy go lucky guy and not the aggressive, dangerous type. Now he’ll spend the prime years of his life in prison. I’m sure it will be absolute hell for him. I’ve known guys who were the kind of guy where they could go to prison and just adjust to it perfectly because they were already violent, conniving, criminally-minded guys whose friends were the same kind of people. Griffin was not one of those guys, at all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/31 "2011-04-16T03:06:32Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > That’s not what you said in an earlier thread. > > For what it’s worth, I DON’T think Griffin was raped… > > it was just the seeming inconsistency in your position that hit me. > > In one thread you say that a woman can be too drunk to consent, yet in this thread you are saying unequivocally that although the testimony (and I agree not credible) is that he WAS too drunk to consent he was NOT raped. > > You don’t find this strange at all? The testimony is that they were BOTH drunk. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/32 "2011-04-16T03:08:48Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What isn’t credible about him being too drunk to consent? The fact that the other guy was just as drunk and was a lot smaller. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/33 "2011-04-16T03:11:53Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Verdict is in, Griffin has been convicted of murder. He faces 45 to 65 years in prison. > > I’m kind of surprised he wasn’t given a somewhat lighter sentence. Why should he have gotten a lighter sentence? He murdered another human being in cold blood. ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/34 "2011-04-16T03:50:44Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Of course I should be more bothered by the death of Belton Yes. You should. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/35 "2011-04-16T03:51:52Z")
I never knew him so it’s not as jarring. Many in the community did know him and he is well missed. People get killed all the time for all kinds of reasons. You hear about it on the news every day. But the idea that something could happen in a seemingly-normal person’s mind to make him stab someone else to death…that is scarier to me than the act of murder itself. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/36 "2011-04-16T04:18:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The fact that the other guy was just as drunk and was a lot smaller. Where do you get the fact that the other guy was just as drunk? ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/37 "2011-04-16T07:10:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The testimony is that they were BOTH drunk. Surely you don’t mean that the (alleged) rapist’s being drunk is a defense. That (alleged) rape doesn’t justify murder is, of course, a different question. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/38 "2011-04-16T07:18:23Z")
Oy. I don’t question those who say they are victims of rape. It’s just not my field. Maybe that’s leftover from being an advocate or something. I don’t know. Moral of the story: **Don’t assume consent from someone when they’re drunk, especially if they are ex Marines who don’t play for your team.** But seriously, people, you don’t have to physically overpower someone to rape them. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/39 "2011-04-16T15:01:13Z")
> [@PBear42](#): > > Surely you don’t mean that the (alleged) rapist’s being drunk is a defense. Of course not. I mean that the attempts to say he couldn’t have consented are moot if they were both drunk. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441/40 "2011-04-16T15:15:51Z")
Remove the gay angle from the story. Suppose a woman is raped at a party- or is told that she is, she personally doesn’t remember it- and kills the perp two days later. I think the jury would vote to convict even if it was proven the alleged rapist had sex with her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murder-of-a-rapist-or-gay-panic-killing/578441.md?page=3)