# The music that is better than itself **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 30, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607 "2013-10-30T00:20:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/1 "2013-10-30T00:20:02Z")
Researchers told the participants of their experiment that they are going to play two variations of the same theme by two composers. They declared that musical critics say that the first variation is a masterpiece, while the second is its exaggerated imitation totally deficient in self-subsistence and beauty. They said that that the aim of the experiment is to see whether laymen agree with the experts. Afterward experimenters played the same record twice… [http://ecclesiastes911.net/the\_music\_that\_is\_better\_than\_itself/](http://ecclesiastes911.net/the_music_that_is_better_than_itself/) ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/2 "2013-10-30T00:49:23Z")
Wagner’s music is better than it sounds - Mark Twain ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/3 "2013-10-30T02:05:18Z")
Along vaguely similar lines, you might be intersted in the Joshua Bell subway experiment: > **[Pearls Before Breakfast: Can one of the nation’s great musicians cut through...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/pearls-before-breakfast-can-one-of-the-nations-great-musicians-cut-through-the-fog-of-a-dc-rush-hour-lets-find-out/2014/09/23/8a6d46da-4331-11e4-b47c-f5889e061e5f_story.html)** > > Joshua Bell is one of the world’s greatest violinists. His instrument of choice is a multimillion-dollar Stradivarius. If he played it for spare change, incognito, outside a bustling Metro stop in Washington, would anyone notice? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/4 "2013-10-30T04:07:42Z")
> [@zombywoof](#): > > Along vaguely similar lines, you might be intersted in the Joshua Bell subway experiment: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html) Interesting. Years ago I read a very similar story. It happened somewhere in Europe, probably in one of the Scandinavian countries. Probably in the first half of the 20th century. A very famous violinist played in the street and did not get much attention. Only a watchman from a musical school for kids stopped to listened and said to the violinist something like “you have some abilities, but you should work on your technique.” So the Washington Post experiment is not original. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/5 "2013-10-30T11:34:07Z")
Jorge Luis Borges preferred [Pierre Menard’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Menard,_Author_of_the_Quixote)version of _Don Quixote_ much more than Cervantes’ original. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/6 "2013-10-30T11:57:11Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > Interesting. Years ago I read a very similar story. It happened somewhere in Europe, probably in one of the Scandinavian countries. Probably in the first half of the 20th century. A very famous violinist played in the street and did not get much attention. Only a watchman from a musical school for kids stopped to listened and said to the violinist something like “you have some abilities, but you should work on your technique.” > > So the Washington Post experiment is not original. It was also done in [1930s Chicago](http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/bell.asp), as Weingarten noted after pulling the stunt with Bell. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/7 "2013-11-03T05:19:37Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Jorge Luis Borges preferred [Pierre Menard’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Menard,_Author_of_the_Quixote)version of _Don Quixote_ much more than Cervantes’ original. But they are different, aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/8 "2013-11-06T02:30:54Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > It was also done in [1930s Chicago](http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/bell.asp), as Weingarten noted after pulling the stunt with Bell. He noted it after he already got a Pulitzer Prize. Interestingly this Milton Fairman who did the trick before Weingarten did not get any prize. Anyway, most likely he also was not the first. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/9 "2013-11-06T02:48:13Z")
> [@zombywoof](#): > > Along vaguely similar lines, you might be intersted in the Joshua Bell subway experiment: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html) I remember hearing about that. I still fail to see the point, I’m on my way to work, not listen to music. I might stop for a few if I knew the person playing, but not because of WHAT they were playing. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/10 "2013-11-06T04:22:44Z")
> [@zombywoof](#): > > Along vaguely similar lines, you might be intersted in the Joshua Bell subway experiment: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html) > [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > I remember hearing about that. I still fail to see the point, I’m on my way to work, not listen to music. I might stop for a few if I knew the person playing, but not because of WHAT they were playing. The problem is that he was playing in a subway station during Friday morning rush hour. When I’m on my way to work (especially if I’m catching a train) I can’t just stop and listen to a street performer, and then end up being late for work regardless of how good he is. Recreate that experiment on a Friday night, or in a park and see how many more people stop to listen. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/11 "2013-11-06T16:23:57Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > The problem is that he was playing in a subway station during Friday morning rush hour. When I’m on my way to work (especially if I’m catching a train) I can’t just stop and listen to a street performer, and then end up being late for work regardless of how good he is. Recreate that experiment on a Friday night, or in a park and see how many more people stop to listen. The Chicago experiment was done at noon with the same result. Besides, here is [a test where you are to tell a famous musician from an unknown one](http://reverent.org/famous_or_unknown_musician.html). You can take it this night, or can wait for Friday night. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/12 "2013-11-06T16:56:04Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > The Chicago experiment was done at noon with the same result. Besides, here is [a test where you are to tell a famous musician from an unknown one](http://reverent.org/famous_or_unknown_musician.html). You can take it this night, or can wait for Friday night. I wasn’t trying to say that the average person has a impeccable taste in music, merely that people are more likely to stop to observe any form of art or entertainment when they’re not trying to catch a train. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/13 "2013-11-06T17:11:19Z")
With the famous performer busking thing, I think it’s just a bit daft- busking is a whole different skill to performing in a setting where everyone is there ready to pay attention. It’s nothing to do with the musical skills, it’s simply that they’ve never had to learn the same audience interaction skills that make for a good busker. It’s also totally the wrong style of music- the subtlety of a detailed performance is just not going to be there over the noise and bustle of rush hour; you want to play something loud and punchy. There’s a reason people are encouraged to shut up in a concert hall. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/14 "2013-11-06T17:37:52Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > But they are different, aren’t they? In that one really exists and the other doesn’t, yes. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/15 "2013-11-06T18:32:44Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > The problem is that he was playing in a subway station during Friday morning rush hour. When I’m on my way to work (especially if I’m catching a train) I can’t just stop and listen to a street performer, and then end up being late for work regardless of how good he is. Recreate that experiment on a Friday night, or in a park and see how many more people stop to listen. Very true. The article is headlined “Pearls before breakfast”, as if the choice was between a bowl of Special K and Bach. But it was actually a choice between “negatively impacting your job/transportation options” and Bach, and that’s not much of a choice at all. And sorry Mr. violinist/article writer… one of the reasons why people have their electronics is so they can listen to the _Chaconne_ without giving up their time. Just because I rushed past you doesn’t mean that I don’t know the piece you’re playing. Lastly, if the guy made a daily gig of this in time he would start to have people grouping around him, listening, and he would be wiser as to what times of day work better at gathering groups. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/16 "2013-11-06T19:47:28Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > I wasn’t trying to say that the average person has a impeccable taste in music, merely that people are more likely to stop to observe any form of art or entertainment when they’re not trying to catch a train. I agree that this is an obvious defect of the Washington Post experiment. However the test I linked to in my previous message is free from this flaw. Thus you can find people with impeccable taste in music and ask them to take the test. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/17 "2013-11-07T15:30:44Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > In that one really exists and the other doesn’t, yes. It is a sufficient difference. The guy had invented it, so he was not mislead. And nobody was mislead by him. You, probably, will not question that would Sorokin and Boldyreff have used text instead of music, they would have mislead nobody. However, [when people see unattributed texts, they fail to tell which belongs to the best writer and which belongs to the worst one](http://www.significancemagazine.org/details/webexclusive/4514341/A-scientific-evaluation-of-Charles-Dickens.html). ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/18 "2013-11-07T16:19:30Z")
After the break-down of the Soviet Union Western Europe was flooded with Russian musicians, who had become unemployed as a result, busking in the streets. I’d say that they were generally looked upon as very good and people stopped to listen. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/19 "2013-11-07T19:02:57Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > The Chicago experiment was done at noon with the same result. Besides, here is [a test where you are to tell a famous musician from an unknown one](http://reverent.org/famous_or_unknown_musician.html). You can take it this night, or can wait for Friday night. Well, I just took it when I’m half drunk and hours late for bed, and I got 83%. The one I got wrong was only one of two that I felt was even close. The rest were obvious within the first few seconds of hearing them both. I was familiar with only the first and last works. I don’t know that I have impeccable taste in music, and I am far from the caliber and style presented in the test, but I am a musician. I do have a generally low opinion of critics, so I doubt being told one was critically acclaimed would have influenced me in a positive manner toward a work. Perhaps I just know what to listen for in a good performance, but if I were rushing to catch a train, I wouldn’t have spent the time waiting for anyone to play a song unless they were going to follow me. What are either of these experiments supposed to prove? That we’re easily led? Or that we’re too busy for a concert while commuting? If it’s either of those, I don’t think that anyone would be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607/20 "2013-11-08T17:43:31Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > After the break-down of the Soviet Union Western Europe was flooded with Russian musicians, who had become unemployed as a result, busking in the streets. I’d say that they were generally looked upon as very good and people stopped to listen. And many Russian musicians got prestigious positions in leading European orchestras and operas. What I am saying is that those who flooded the streets were unknown musicians. As you remember Weingarten wrote that one of 40 people whom they surveyed recognized Bell for “who he was” that is for a very good musician. I suspect that would you have surveyed 40 people who listened those unknown Russian musicians, one of them would have said the same thing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-music-that-is-better-than-itself/672607.md?page=2)