# The mystery of the trinity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373 "2014-02-02T20:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/281 "2014-04-18T21:44:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Or perhaps calling you out in your megaloia, since you stated it and I called you out on it, stating powers I know you don’t possess, and you later admit you don’t possess. > > Pretty cut and dry here please don’t try to blame shift, it’s not going to work. A bit further on this, and after a shower and some time to muse on it, and in to how it applies to my faith. What you said basically is don’t ever try as no one will accept it. In the terms that God does dwell in human flesh (part of the trinity) and also we are God’s children and God is the parent. With the way you stated that, it in the way a ‘bad’ parent would speak to its child. Such as ‘you will never achieve’ etc. This form of discouragement has been plaguing humanity for far too long. Too many children have been told they are worthless, and each one of those statements is a lie - as it applies to children it also applies to everyone. It also shows us the power we are given, even adult to adult we can still take the parent to child role (and that is where much abuse of power is). You tried to make a statement to discourage me, and if I didn’t recognize the source I may have accepted it and gave up. But knowing that God is Love always, I recognized your statement as false (even thought you can claim your unique statement is a act of creation and therefore a act of God I reply it is only allowed to be created by God for the purpose of my learning. The same with scriptures, man wrote it and God dwelt withing man, man had his purpose and God His. It was not allowed because of the lesser purpose but the greater. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/282 "2014-04-18T21:46:05Z")
> [@simster](#): > > So - Hitler - was part of the trinity and everything he did was part of God’s loving plan to teach us something about love. > > God needs to think this thru. So is Satan as: God desires none of His Children to be lost and God is perfect and God planned everything out before He created the world. (all in scriptures - well including Satan as a child of God not so much be that’s why I put that space between these 2 sentences. ) ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/283 "2014-04-18T21:50:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > So is Satan as: > > God desires none of His Children to be lost and God is perfect a\*\*nd God planned everything out before He created the world. \*\* (all in scriptures - well including Satan as a child of God not so much be that’s why I put that space between these 2 sentences. ) \ Then God is not love - he’s a sadist and evil - there is no valid lesson to be learned by allowing the things he has - even moreso if he “planned the whole thing” and isn’t simply allowing free will, etc to affect things. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/284 "2014-04-18T21:53:15Z")
> [@simster](#): > > \ > > Then God is not love - he’s a sadist and evil - there is no valid lesson to be learned by allowing the things he has - even moreso if he “planned the whole thing” and isn’t simply allowing free will, etc to affect things. Then you learned the lesson, basically we don’t want that and reject that ans willing to step out in faith and love to oppose that. Um how did Hitler come to power??? Are you sure we don’t still need that lesson? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/285 "2014-04-19T00:34:58Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Then you learned the lesson, basically we don’t want that and reject that ans willing to step out in faith and love to oppose that. > > Um how did Hitler come to power??? Are you sure we don’t still need that lesson? Wait - I just want to be sure I understand what you’re saying. God is love. God created everything - everything that is created came from god. God planned every event in advance. God planned for Hitler (and a host of other examples, even those straight form his perfect, unbreakable scripture) and genocides, murders, cancer babies, hurricanes, floods (worldwide even!) etc. God planned all this so that we would learn a lesson to step in to faith/love to oppose the evil that he so perfectly planned. Evil is proof that “God is love” because God created evil to prove that God is love? That about sum it up? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/286 "2014-04-19T00:55:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Or perhaps calling you out in your megalomania . . . Unlike, say, the hubris involved in re-interpreting the Bible without the ability to support one’s claims, and without any academic support. Name-calling, sir? I’ll immediately forgive it, the moment you show some actual scholarly defense of your astonishing revisions. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/287 "2014-04-19T01:14:26Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I seek to shatter both religion and conventional view of reality so fragile into a thousand pieces. When the Great Apocalypse finally happens, **kanic** , I so want you on my team. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/288 "2014-04-19T12:36:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Does 3 year studying Scriptures count? Does 60 years count more? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/289 "2014-04-19T12:44:21Z")
> [@simster](#): > > a) don’t look back - she looked back > b) So - he remember Abraham and and brought Lot out of the catastrophe - and there is no mention that the Wife was remembered “with honor” or anything. > > Trying to think in what world Lot impregnating his daughters is a ‘good thing’. These types of passages seem to show that the God of Abraham if it is like written could not know the future, would have no reason to kill innocent babies. or regret creating humans that the he knew would turn out bad, or even create a evil demon and let it destroy his children. If I knew ahead of time any of my children would grow to be a monster, I would not have that child to begin with.So either that God is not just or loving as written.and seems to want evil to exist. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/290 "2014-04-19T12:52:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Look at it this way, God wants to know if His child is ready, are they at the point in their development where they are willing to step out in faith, even disobeying angels, for the purpose of Love. > > Abraham (Abram) failed in this, he only got to 10 and called it quits, Abraham could have went further to the point where Abraham said to God, if there is no one of faith then send me and spare the city, but Abraham was scared and his faith not ready yet. Abraham’s faith would be tested again later with Issac’s sacrifice. > > Lot’s wife OTOH did and the words used to describe what happened relate to things that are associated with glorification, not death. > > The Angels were delivering the rest (Lott’s family), as they were not ready, to their next place. If God wants to know if his child is ready then he doesn’t know all things as believed by many, and is not as good as many of his creations. He seems (as you put it) to get his jollies out of other’s suffering and is a cruel Monster.He even kills poor animals who could not sin if they wanted to! It sounds insulting to a Supreme Being, who is all knowing ,All loving and all Just. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/291 "2014-04-19T12:55:27Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > But that does not produce a God of Love, which is a scriptural requirement. > > I guess I’m not making myself clear on this one. Lot’s life seemed to hit a dead end, a unfortunate circumstance where by ‘following the instructions’ of angels he and his daughters end up living out their days as basically homeless (OK they have a cave), but a very unfortunate ending. It would seem in many tellings of the story of Lott’s wife that the ‘moral’ is ‘obey God’, but if Lott did why would he end up in such a unfortunate circumstance? It is questioning if Lott made the correct choice following the words of the angels, and questioning if Lott’s wife made the wrong choice by looking back (which I already went in to > > Moses made it into the promised land (Luke 9:30), and like my contention with Lott’s wife was also glorified. > > King David got drunk, Jesus was accused of being a drunkard. I don’t think you can say that God didn’t attend man not to get drunk at times. God may actually use that to get things done that the person may not be able to do when sober. Mind altering substances are used in many faiths as part of a spiritual expernce. > > That’s the issue right there, your statement does not agree with scriptures (God is Love, scriptures can not be broken). So given that your ‘god’ that you got from scriptures is not ‘God’, you got a different one. Even Jesus didn’t call the OT God’s law but the law of the Pharisees.John 10. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/292 "2014-04-21T17:29:54Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Wait - I just want to be sure I understand what you’re saying. > > God is love. > > God created everything - everything that is created came from god. > > God planned every event in advance. > > God planned for Hitler (and a host of other examples, even those straight form his perfect, unbreakable scripture) and genocides, murders, cancer babies, hurricanes, floods (worldwide even!) etc. > > God planned all this so that we would learn a lesson to step in to faith/love to oppose the evil that he so perfectly planned. > > Evil is proof that “God is love” because God created evil to prove that God is love? > > That about sum it up? You are missing a critical part, that God has the power to split reality so that what one experiences is not what another does. If you are ready to have Love in your heart and be a child of Love He gives you a different reality, if not you remain ‘behind’, only suffering what you have caused yourself, nothing more, and also limited by what is needed for you to realize that there is another way. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/293 "2014-04-21T17:34:08Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Unlike, say, the hubris involved in re-interpreting the Bible without the ability to support one’s claims, and without any academic support. > > Name-calling, sir? I’ll immediately forgive it, the moment you show some actual scholarly defense of your astonishing revisions. I accept the offer of forgiveness and I thank you for it- there was a personal issue in there. But as for your claim, someone has to be right, and conventional reasoning is not always correct, see ‘science’ for multiple examples of overturning conventional thinking by new radical ideas as proof that it can happen - and it will (using the ‘witnessing’ allowance affording to me in GD) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/294 "2014-04-21T17:36:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You are missing a critical part, that God has the power to split reality so that what one experiences is not what another does. This super power isn’t really mentioned in the Bible. What’s your source? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/295 "2014-04-21T17:41:27Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Does 60 years count more? Don’t know. My 3 years was without other human input, the reason (from God) I got was because I (God) wanted to teach you directly without man’s corruption of them. So perhaps it is 3 years of being instructed directly by God compared to 60 yrs of being taught by man. In many ways it was the most horrible time in my life. But there you go. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/296 "2014-04-21T17:44:17Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If God wants to know if his child is ready then he doesn’t know all things as believed by many, and is not as good as many of his creations. He seems (as you put it) to get his jollies out of other’s suffering and is a cruel Monster.He even kills poor animals who could not sin if they wanted to! It sounds insulting to a Supreme Being, who is all knowing ,All loving and all Just. God is raising a child (who is given free will), perhaps it’s more appropriate for the child to know, a challenge met helps the child know who he/she is and what they are capable of. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/297 "2014-04-21T17:45:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This super power isn’t really mentioned in the Bible. What’s your source? God you are quick. Quick answer: ‘The Bible’ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/298 "2014-04-21T17:47:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God you are quick. > > Quick answer: > > ‘The Bible’ Screw that. Cite the verse where God creates different realities for different people. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/299 "2014-04-21T17:55:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Screw that. > Cite the verse where God creates different realities for different people. YOu really want me to have to look up the stoning of Stephan and the forces of God that Elijah shared with the person who thought the battle was lost, I’m sure I coudl come up with more. If you insist I will but I really would rather not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/300 "2014-04-21T17:56:03Z")
ISTM the ultimate Mystery of the Trinity is, “Who cares?” Jesus never said you have to master abstruse points of religious philosophy to get into Heaven; he said you have to be as a little child, and little children are not philosophers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373.md?page=16)