# The mystery of the trinity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373 "2014-02-02T20:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/321 "2014-04-21T19:49:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I beleive I cited those verses in post # 310, so why do you state I am unwilling? Please answer that or please retract your statement. > > And to answer you question even though you have outright lied about me in this post, What doe Stephan see and what does the Pharisees see, are they consistent? kanicbird, I’m issuing you a warning for this. Accusing another poster of lying is expressing forbidden in Great Debates. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/322 "2014-04-21T23:48:55Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > kanicbird, I’m issuing you a warning for this. Accusing another poster of lying is expressing forbidden in Great Debates. Don’t do it again. I want to thank you for pointing it out, till this I really have not considered how such a statement can be taken by another and do agree it was hitting below the belt and I do apologize to the poster **simster**. I don’t expect it to happen again. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/323 "2014-04-22T00:24:52Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > . . . What doe Stephan see and what does the Pharisees see, are they consistent? If God gives my neighbor a vision – say, a golden staircase such as was shown to Jacob – but I am not given to see it, why would you argue that these are two separate “realities?” One is a vision, but not necessarily a reality. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/324 "2014-04-22T03:23:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > If God gives my neighbor a vision – say, a golden staircase such as was shown to Jacob – but I am not given to see it, why would you argue that these are two separate “realities?” One is a vision, but not necessarily a reality. 'm still trying to figure out how they knew what Stephen saw - its not like he had time to tell anyone. “Remember, this is for posterity - how did that make you feel?” ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/325 "2014-04-22T03:23:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You are missing a critical part, that God has the power to split reality so that what one experiences is not what another does. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I would like you to cite where in the Bible it _directly_ says that God creates alternate realities for different people. It’s always hard to tell with **kanicbird,** but my guess is that he’s talking about [Multiverse Theory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_theory), as in the (yet unproven) M-Theory branch of science. And to play Devil’s Advocate, it’s my personal “faith” that the Christian God (whether or not he exists) does _not_ have the power to “split reality” – certainly, he never claimed that power anywhere in the Bible – but the God Beyond God (i.e. God’s God) _does_ have that power. Happens all the time, and we humans rarely, if ever, notice it. Now, to play Angel’s Advocate: > [@kanicbird](#): > > I know the Elijsh verse will require some time, would you accept 2 Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, > [@kanicbird](#): > > The stoning of Stephan is the easy one, Acts 7: 54-60 How in God’s Green Earth did you read any kind of “split reality” into those verses? Even taken as fiction, both stories are purely linear. C’mon kanic, you can do better than this. If you don’t know the answer, at least make up something that’s too dense & elliptical for we mere mortals to parse. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/326 "2014-04-22T03:24:19Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I know the Elijsh verse will require some time, would you accept 2 Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, So - God again directly causes people to believe a lie - where’s the love in that? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/327 "2014-04-22T04:26:05Z")
> [@simster](#): > > 'm still trying to figure out how they knew what Stephen saw - its not like he had time to tell anyone. > > “Remember, this is for posterity - how did that make you feel?” Well, in the passage quoted, he cries out aloud and tells everyone what he saw. Of course, so does Rummy Jim, the old alkie who panhandles by the railroad tracks. “Bats! Bats and snakes! Big teethy bats!” ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/328 "2014-04-22T05:14:05Z")
Bats? I thought that was in _Fear and Loathing_. Lots of reality-splitting going on in that book. No one could split up reality as well as the gonzo guy. Holy crap, does that mean Hunter S. Thompson was god? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/329 "2014-04-22T12:41:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Don’t know. My 3 years was without other human input, the reason (from God) I got was because I (God) wanted to teach you directly without man’s corruption of them. > > So perhaps it is 3 years of being instructed directly by God compared to 60 yrs of being taught by man. > > In many ways it was the most horrible time in my life. > > But there you go. I know you believe your teachings are from God but you have no way to prove your actions are from God anymore than Hitler and any other human. As I stated many times belief is not fact, you have yet to prove what your belief comes from God any more than people who do evil or Kill in God’s name. The fanatics who are suicide Bombers etc. Truly believe they are doing Gods’ work . Your beliefs help you to live a better life then fine. But it is only your own mind convincing you it is from God. I don’t pretend that God is advising me, or anyone else, if that were so , there would be no divisions among religions, all would be the same. A woman (and there have been many) who have killed their children because they believed it was God telling them to do so. I could claim God is telling me you are wrong, but I know my thoughts and beliefs are from my own life experiences and what I was taught, and read, or heard from others. all humans accept what they want to be. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/330 "2014-04-22T12:49:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I know the Elijsh verse will require some time, would you accept 2 Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, The Bible is not proof of anything except it is in the Bible anymore than the Koran is a direct dictation from an Angel to Mohammed. It is still just taking the word of some human like yourself who believes it is God. You sound like a good person but your logic doesn’t mesh. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/331 "2014-04-23T13:49:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m not interested in your personal alternate realities and wildly off interpretations. I would like you to cite where in the Bible it _directly_ says that God creates alternate realities for different people. I said it would take me some time to find it, 2 Kings 6: 12-20, shows 2 or perhaps 3 levels of reality, controllable by a child of God (God in oneness with man, thus helping explain the trinity): > [@](#): > > 12 “None of us, my lord the king,” said one of his officers, “but Elisha, the prophet who is in Israel, tells the king of Israel the very words you speak in your bedroom.” > > 13 “Go, find out where he is,” the king ordered, “so I can send men and capture him.” The report came back: “He is in Dothan.” 14 Then he sent horses and chariots and a strong force there. They went by night and surrounded the city. > > 15 When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. “Oh no, my lord! What shall we do?” the servant asked. > > 16 “Don’t be afraid,” the prophet answered. “Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” > > 17 And Elisha prayed, “Open his eyes, Lord, so that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. > > 18 As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the Lord, “Strike this army with blindness.” So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked. > > 19 Elisha told them, “This is not the road and this is not the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man you are looking for.” And he led them to Samaria. > > 20 After they entered the city, Elisha said, “Lord, open the eyes of these men so they can see.” Then the Lord opened their eyes and they looked, and there they were, inside Samaria. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/332 "2014-04-23T14:19:25Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I said it would take me some time to find it, 2 Kings 6: 12-20, shows 2 or perhaps 3 levels of reality, controllable by a child of God (God in oneness with man, thus helping explain the trinity): You obviously do not understand what is being asked of you, so I am not going to press the matter. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/333 "2014-04-23T23:22:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You obviously do not understand what is being asked of you, so I am not going to press the matter. Well if you won’t I will, as long as the mods allow me to without getting warnings. As I believe this is part of the trinity mystery, I believe I can claim this under witnessing but I am very hesitant and scared at to even looking into GD in discussing anything on the SD regarding the warning received ad I have considered leaving the SDMB as I felt the ‘official permanent recorded’ warning that received was overly harsh as a official warning, I do feel that many others would have just been given a reminder, not a mark on their SD record, I feel that is very unfair. My point to you is that not 2 individual realities expressed, one that a child of God gets and one that ‘mankind’ gets. And are they interrelated? How is that not 2 related, and if interrelated how is that not split reality? ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/334 "2014-04-23T23:52:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I said it would take me some time to find it, 2 Kings 6: 12-20, shows 2 or perhaps 3 levels of reality, controllable by a child of God (God in oneness with man, thus helping explain the trinity): Ok, think I get what you’re trying to describe here (aside from the “child of God” part, only the devil & the universe can parse that crazy part…) You’re talking about how people remember events differently. How eyewitness accounts frequently disagree about the color of a hit-and-run vehicle, or what time of night they heard the gun go off. In a way, that does mesh pretty nice with Multiverse Theory – every human’s conscious experience (as well as non-humans, including God, if he weren’t completely imaginary) can be construed as a “parallel universe”, whereby 97.5% of our individual universes are the same (i.e. “consensus reality”) but the other 2.5% is up for grabs…usually concerning hot-topic matters like abortion, 2nd-amendment rights, SMM, etc. It also explains why most humans can’t ever agree on anything, except obvious things like gravity. How’d I do, **kanic?** Am I anywhere near correct? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/335 "2014-04-24T12:22:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I know the Elijsh verse will require some time, would you accept 2 Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, So the God you believe in is a monster who makes people delude them selves? What an insult to a loving Being. God creates evil and puts an obstacle in their way so they can’t know the truth? It sure sounds like a Myth to me, and speaks not of an all knowing ,loving, being what a sad description of your God. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/336 "2014-04-24T13:13:17Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > So the God you believe in is a monster who makes people delude them selves? What an insult to a loving Being. God creates evil and puts an obstacle in their way so they can’t know the truth? It sure sounds like a Myth to me, and speaks not of an all knowing ,loving, being what a sad description of your God. Can you think of a possible reason of hiding the ‘truth’ from someone as a loving act of mercy? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/337 "2014-04-24T13:20:08Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > How’d I do, **kanic?** Am I anywhere near correct? 🆒 Not really. I think you are describing another thing I do believe happens, but that’s not what I’m talking about here. Here God has created a reality for ‘man’ (aka mankind) that is a subset of another larger reality. The man’s reality is a splitoff of the main one - splitting reality. The tie in to the trinity, is that we are men but also children of God, so we have access to the larger reality, what really happens and why. But in that we need to reconize our ‘god self’ or else we are just in the one and can not see the other. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/338 "2014-04-24T14:00:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Can you think of a possible reason of hiding the ‘truth’ from someone as a loving act of mercy? “hiding the truth” does not equal 'causing delusions to cause someone to believe a lie" - secondly - we’re talking about GOD here - there should never be a reason it (as a loving god) would need to lie or hide the truth - if its all about love. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/339 "2014-04-24T15:24:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Not really. I think you are describing another thing I do believe happens, but that’s not what I’m talking about here. > > Here God has created a reality for ‘man’ (aka mankind) that is a subset of another larger reality. The man’s reality is a splitoff of the main one - splitting reality. But that’s exactly what I’m talking about – except the ‘split reality’ is not created by God, but by the individual person. (Some people can’t see the forest for the trees, etc.) If I’m still wrong, why don’t you at least attempt to explain what you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/340 "2014-04-24T20:50:27Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > So the God you believe in is a monster who makes people delude them selves? What an insult to a loving Being. God creates evil and puts an obstacle in their way so they can’t know the truth? It sure sounds like a Myth to me, and speaks not of an all knowing ,loving, being what a sad description of your God. Agreed. And another example of this is where Jesus said (proudly!) that he only spoke in parables to prevent too many people from understanding him. Such love! > [@kanicbird](#): > > Can you think of a possible reason of hiding the ‘truth’ from someone as a loving act of mercy? When you’re about to step off a cliff – into eternal fire, no less – if I try to warn you in Balearic Whistling Language instead of the English I know you understand, I am not performing an act of mercy, but an act of vicious spite. If Jesus knows we’re in danger of hellfire, and he says, “There was this old man, see, who once sent his son out to buy some groceries,” he is doing less than he could to save us. This is a really shitty way to demonstrate “love.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373.md?page=18)