# The mystery of the trinity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373 "2014-02-02T20:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/61 "2014-02-04T13:08:41Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > The simplest explanation I can give is that science explores the “how” whereas philosophy and religion explore the “why”. > > For example, science can more or less explain everything about how we got here, from the briefest of moments after the Big Bang, the formation of our solar system, evolution, etc. But science doesn’t give us a purpose. For the religious, they have that to give them purpose. Even for the non-religious, they draw their purpose from some philosophy. But there’s no objectively scientifically observeable reason that we’re here. > > Or for an imperfect analogy, let’s imagine the birth of a child. The biology from conception to birth is well understood. Imagine ourselves, humanity, as that child. Science can tell us all about that biology, it can even tell us who our parents are and that they had sex (well, in most cases), but what it can’t tell us is why our parents had us. Maybe they’re a couple and really wanted children or maybe the child was an accident, maybe it was a one-night stand in a drunken stupor. The way to learn about that, isn’t by looking in a biology text book, it’s to ask our parents. By the same token, asking your parents about the biology, may or may not be the right answer, but the better way to answer that is by looking in a biology text book. > > This sort of division exists in many other areas as well, not just why we’re here. Morality is a good example. Now, science can tell us that, more or less, given a particular moral goal what the result may be. That is, if we assert that minimizing suffering and saving lives are laudible moral goals, then science may be able to help us find ways to maxmize those, but the basis for why those are laudable goals exists in the realm of philosophy and religion. Sure, as humans we overwhelmingly agree with those, and many other basic moral goals, so we tend to take for granted that they’re object, but science isn’t about “good” and “bad”. The laws of physics don’t care whether humanity reaches some utopian society or we wipe eachother out in a nuclear holocaust, they’ll keep working exactly the same way they always have regardless. > > So, that’s what’s meant by them being in search of different truths. But, perhaps a better way of summing it up would be in a line from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: “Archaeology is the search for fact… not truth. If it’s truth you’re looking for, Dr. Tyree’s philosophy class is right down the hall.” Life itself is purpose; you were born to live. Live the best you can and include your fellow man who is a help to each other. Sort of the Golden rule. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/62 "2014-02-04T13:40:44Z")
**Czarcasm** that would be narcissism. unless, of course, God us not a person but rather a community of persons. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/63 "2014-02-04T13:54:18Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **Czarcasm** that would be narcissism. unless, of course, God us not a person but rather a community of persons. If your god _is_ the universe, narcissism is all he’s got. edited to add: And there is nothing healthy about Dissociative Identity Disorder, in gods _or_ humans. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/64 "2014-02-04T20:19:03Z")
How would that be dissociative personality disorder? The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghosts are genuinely distinct and different persons, just as you and your wife are. They aren’t independent in the same way that the Greek gods were independent of each other, but they are definitely distinct individuals, distinct persons. Is it dissociative personality disorder when you love your wife? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/65 "2014-02-04T20:21:34Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > How would that be dissociative personality disorder? > > The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghosts are genuinely distinct and different persons, just as you and your wife are. They aren’t independent in the same way that the Greek gods were independent of each other, but they are definitely distinct individuals, distinct persons. Is it dissociative personality disorder when you love your wife? Might I ask what sect you belong to? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/66 "2014-02-04T20:48:12Z")
**Hector** , you still haven’t answered my question: Why did God not tell the Jews about the Trinity? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/67 "2014-02-05T03:28:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or alternately, whoever or whatever he was doing before he created this universe. “Creating Hell, for those who ask that question.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/68 "2014-02-05T03:53:40Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > To err is to be human. > > A human who is God who did not ever sin, is therefore a non-starter. In Christian doctrine, we err because we were born in Original Sin, inherited from Adam and Eve (funny concept, that); but, alone of all post-Adamite humans, Jesus (and, in RCC doctrine, Mary) was not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/69 "2014-02-05T03:59:06Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I’m not Jewish, though, I’m Christian, so why should it matter to me whether the Trinity is alien to the Jewish conception of God? Because Jesus was a Jew. When he prayed, he would not have done the hands-clasping thing, he would have done the head-bobbing thing. And the Bible does say that he **prayed,** as if to a higher being – well, then, to Whom? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/70 "2014-02-05T05:45:57Z")
N.B.: Jesus was a Jew and **nothing else.** “Christians” came along later. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/71 "2014-02-05T19:53:12Z")
Re: And the Bible does say that he prayed, as if to a higher being – well, then, to Whom? To God the Father? One divine individual praying to a second divine individual doesn’t seem like a conundrum to me. Re: Why did God not tell the Jews about the Trinity? I don’t know, but I should say that, from my point of view as a Christian, the Old Testament was never meant to be a complete, definitive and fully reliable account of the nature of God, or of morality. There are parts of the Old Testament that I certainly wouldn’t regard as being of divine origin- the slaughter of the Amalekites, etc.- and even the parts that really do come from God, offer us at best a murky and partial picture. The purpose that God had in inspiring the Old Testament, in my view, was to prepare the way for the New. It isn’t to be viewed as a stand-alone document (if it is, it quickly leads you to some dark places): it’s to be viewed as background for Jesus Christ. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that the picture of God that we get from it is deficient. Incidentally, I don’t think the Old Testament necessarily leads you to strict monotheism. It rules out polytheism, but it doesn’t rule out three divine individuals dependent on each other and forming a community. Christians can read the Old Testament in a way perfectly consonant with Trinitarianism. **Czarcasm** me personally? I’m Episcopalian, though not necessarily an especially orthodox one, but my church doesn’t pin down the nature of the Trinity other than what is in the Creeds: Nicene, Apostle’s, and Athanasian. (The Athanasian creed gives the most detailed outline of the Trinity). Richard Swinburne, though, whose Social Trinitarian view I’m more or less cribbing (though it has much earlier roots) is a former member of the Church of England who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/72 "2014-02-05T19:55:54Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Re: And the Bible does say that he prayed, as if to a higher being – well, then, to Whom? > > To God the Father? > > One divine individual praying to a second divine individual doesn’t seem like a conundrum to me. > > Re: Why did God not tell the Jews about the Trinity? Re: Quotes. Do you need instruction on how to use the “quote” function? Your "Re"s do not indicate the source of your quotes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/73 "2014-02-05T19:59:08Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I don’t know, but I should say that, from my point of view as a Christian, the Old Testament was never meant to be a complete, definitive and fully reliable account of the nature of God, or of morality. What parts of the New Testament do you think are unreliable or incomplete? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/74 "2014-02-05T20:01:01Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > One divine individual praying to a second divine individual doesn’t seem like a conundrum to me. It doesn’t seem like a conundrum to me, either. It sounds like ordinary polytheism. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, I don’t think the Old Testament necessarily leads you to strict monotheism. It rules out polytheism, but it doesn’t rule out three divine individuals dependent on each other and forming a community. Again, it’s like you’re saying _it rules out polytheism, but it doesn’t rule out polytheism._ ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/75 "2014-02-05T20:04:44Z")
Re: Quotes. Do you need instruction on how to use the “quote” function? Yes, actually. Thanks for the tip. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/76 "2014-02-05T20:09:07Z")
Re: Again, it’s like you’re saying it rules out polytheism, but it doesn’t rule out polytheism. That depends if by ‘polytheism’ you mean ‘multiple distinct divine individuals’ or ‘multiple distinct **independent** divine individuals’. I believe (with Swinburne) that God in His revelation to the Jews, to the early Christians, and to the Church Fathers intended to rule out the second, not the first. The three Persons are interrelated (i.e. the Father is the source of the Son, and the Father and Son together are the sources of the Spirit). And they are united at a deep level in the same sense that a husband and wife in a perfect marriage are united: it would be impossible for them to be in conflict. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/77 "2014-02-05T20:13:21Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Re: Quotes. Do you need instruction on how to use the “quote” function? > > Yes, actually. Thanks for the tip. At the lower right of any post, there is a button that says “quote.” Click it and the post will be put into a quote box, with a link to the post and the identification of the poster. Once you master this, we’ll discuss multi-quotes (consider multi-quotes a sort of New Testament of quoting). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/78 "2014-02-05T20:13:50Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Re: Quotes. Do you need instruction on how to use the “quote” function? > > Yes, actually. Thanks for the tip. [Here is the code list.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/misc.php?do=bbcode) If you are quoting from a post on this message board, just hit the “quote” button for that post, trim out the stuff you don’t want to quote, then add whatever you want after the " [/QUOTE] " ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/79 "2014-02-05T21:05:53Z")
Something just occured to me about the trinity. If the human aspect Jesus had power over the physical aspects of creation his human emotions might throw it into chaos. Just as the spiritual aspect could not objectively deal with the physical or the human side. The father or creator would have no opinions of feelings about very small details while more concerned with the universe and evolution. Keep in mind that humans described this as a trinity where as it simply might be perfect objectivity. Those that pray often feel that one part of the trinity can implore another part to change something very small now and then as long as it does not affect the grand plan too deeply. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/80 "2014-02-05T21:10:50Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > . . . That depends if by ‘polytheism’ you mean ‘multiple distinct divine individuals’ or ‘multiple distinct **independent** divine individuals’. . . . Fair enough: if Zeus keeps his eye on Apollo all the time, has veto power over any of Apollo’s acts, Apollo has to get permission, etc., then it’s less functionally polytheistic. Apollo would be much like the Christian Angels: a separate power, but having no policy-making power. > [@](#): > > . . . The three Persons are interrelated (i.e. the Father is the source of the Son, and the Father and Son together are the sources of the Spirit). And they are united at a deep level in the same sense that a husband and wife in a perfect marriage are united: it would be impossible for them to be in conflict. It would seem to diminish Jesus’ stature to irrelevance. If we can pray to Mary, or Saint Joseph, or even the Archangel Michael, and the results are as good as praying to Jesus…or even to God…the “value” of Jesus seems all but nullified. He becomes a figurehead, a “nonvoting partner.” At the same time, if you reject that interpretation, how do you account for the power of prayer to Mary, the Saints, the Angels, etc.? The house of cards leans one way…then the other, depending on which way the winds of criticism are blowing. When it’s important to the theology that Jesus be dominant, He Is God…but when it’s important to the same theology that Jesus be submission, he is just the son. There isn’t any coherence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373.md?page=5)