# The mystery of the trinity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373 "2014-02-02T20:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/81 "2014-02-05T21:13:07Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > That depends if by ‘polytheism’ you mean ‘multiple distinct divine individuals’ or ‘multiple distinct **independent** divine individuals’. I believe (with Swinburne) that God in His revelation to the Jews, to the early Christians, and to the Church Fathers intended to rule out the second, not the first. The three Persons are interrelated (i.e. the Father is the source of the Son, and the Father and Son together are the sources of the Spirit). I don’t see how that’s relevant; there are plenty of beliefs we label as ‘polytheist’ involving divine beings such that one created the other or two created the third. > [@](#): > > And they are united at a deep level in the same sense that a husband and wife in a perfect marriage are united: it would be impossible for them to be in conflict. Well, that whole _let not my will, but thy will, be done_ bit kinda goes both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/82 "2014-02-06T01:40:55Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It would seem to diminish Jesus’ stature to irrelevance. If we can pray to Mary, or Saint Joseph, or even the Archangel Michael, and the results are as good as praying to Jesus…or even to God…the “value” of Jesus seems all but nullified. He becomes a figurehead, a “nonvoting partner.” > > At the same time, if you reject that interpretation, how do you account for the power of prayer to Mary, the Saints, the Angels, etc.? > > The house of cards leans one way…then the other, depending on which way the winds of criticism are blowing. When it’s important to the theology that Jesus be dominant, He Is God…but when it’s important to the same theology that Jesus be submission, he is just the son. There isn’t any coherence. I’d say that Mary, the Archangel Michael, etc. are different than Jesus Christ (= God the Son) because they are created beings. God the Son is ‘begotten’, not created. The analogy is that when a person begets a child, they are producing something of the same nature (= human) as themselves. When we _create_ something (say, a work of art or a chemical compound or a house) we are producing something of a different nature than ourselves. Small-o ‘orthodox’ Christianity (I’m not all that orthodox myself, but here I am talking descriptively rather than normatively) has never held that Jesus is ever **not God** though there are certainly times at which his subordination to the Father, especially while on earth, is emphasized, and times at which the equality of the persons is emphasized. The Athanasian Creed says this, though: > [@](#): > > “And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/83 "2014-02-06T02:25:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I’d say that Mary, the Archangel Michael, etc. are different than Jesus Christ (= God the Son) because they are created beings. God the Son is ‘begotten’, not created. > > The analogy is that when a person begets a child, they are producing something of the same nature (= human) as themselves. When we _create_ something (say, a work of art or a chemical compound or a house) we are producing something of a different nature than ourselves. > > Small-o ‘orthodox’ Christianity (I’m not all that orthodox myself, but here I am talking descriptively rather than normatively) has never held that Jesus is ever **not God** though there are certainly times at which his subordination to the Father, especially while on earth, is emphasized, and times at which the equality of the persons is emphasized. The Athanasian Creed says this, though: Why don’t you have a look-see at [this list of non-Trinitarian Christian groups](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Trinitarian#Modern_Christian_groupings) and tell us which ones aren’t really Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/84 "2014-02-06T04:57:48Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > . . . The analogy is that when a person begets a child, they are producing something of the same nature (= human) as themselves. When we _create_ something (say, a work of art or a chemical compound or a house) we are producing something of a different nature than ourselves. . . . Mary, wife of Joseph, was of an entirely different nature than God the father. Jesus cannot be of both natures. The analogy fails – or requires a lot of ad hoc interpretation. (We’ve been all through it before, of course, with Zeus and Herakles…) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/85 "2014-02-06T05:29:38Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What parts of the New Testament do you think are unreliable or incomplete? Revelation, to start with, probably has something to do with some ergot-tainted rye bread or funny mushrooms. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/86 "2014-02-06T05:31:20Z")
TRINITY, n. In the multiplex theism of certain Christian churches, three entirely distinct deities consistent with only one. Subordinate deities of the polytheistic faith, such as devils and angels, are not dowered with the power of combination, and must urge individually their claims to adoration and propitiation. The Trinity is one of the most sublime mysteries of our holy religion. In rejecting it because it is incomprehensible, Unitarians betray their inadequate sense of theological fundamentals. In religion we believe only what we do not understand, except in the instance of an intelligible doctrine that contradicts an incomprehensible one. In that case we believe the former as a part of the latter. – Ambrose Bierce ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/87 "2014-02-06T14:43:33Z")
**Trinopus** : Jesus had two natures, a human and a divine, said the council of Chalcedon. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/88 "2014-02-06T22:02:53Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **Trinopus** : Jesus had two natures, a human and a divine, said the council of Chalcedon. But that goes against your argument that “nature” derives from origin. If things can have “natures” that are different from the natures of their progenitors, then what you said earlier is contradicted. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/89 "2014-02-07T02:12:47Z")
His divine nature derived from God (or that should be ‘derives’, I guess: Trinitarian Christians see the begetting of the Son and the procession of the Spirit\* as things that happen outside of time). His human nature derives from Mary. As Chalcedon puts it: “Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us…co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He were parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.” \*Let’s not get into whether ‘beget’ means something different from ‘proceeds’, that’s another big can of worms, in this case between the Orthodox East and the Catholic/Protestant West. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/90 "2014-02-07T04:25:31Z")
Shrug. “It’s a miracle.” That can be used to explain anything…but ultimately explains nothing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/91 "2014-02-07T06:21:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Shrug. “It’s a miracle.” That can be used to explain anything…but ultimately explains nothing. See post #86. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/92 "2014-02-07T06:26:41Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > His divine nature derived from God (or that should be ‘derives’, I guess: Trinitarian Christians see the begetting of the Son and the procession of the Spirit\* as things that happen outside of time). His human nature derives from Mary. Anything to say about the link I provided in post #83 concerning non-Trinitarian Christians? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/93 "2014-02-07T09:39:37Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > As a child I was baffled by this, as an older adult it is starting to make more sense. I have my walking around beliefs and my sit down and think about it beliefs that are far different from one another. I don’t see science as any kind of contradiction to a belief in god on any level. I believe in intelligent design. I don’t believe science could ever disprove this by explaining how things came to be. > > ``` > I have my walking around beliefs which are christian in nature for the most part. I meditate and catch myself talking to a very human form of God. I also find myself with a longing for the spiritual side and an eternal conciousness. > > If I assume I am for the most part a typical human not much different from humans 10,000 years ago or 2,000 years ago I can see where a trinity would be needed to comprehend and make any sense of anything. I don't feel I am even capable of not believing. I do enjoy the luxury of having a moral compass based on a divine law, it takes a lot of decisions out of my hands and creates a criteria for me to recognize when things are not my decision to make. > > This is a fairly broad view from a believers standpoint. Would athiests in general have a problem with believers at this level even if they did not agree with them? Is the concept of a trinity so unsientific that it really needs to be shot down as woo? Or is it simply a harmelss coping mechanism for a lot of humans like myself? > > ``` Judaism and Islam are against trinity. Christians fell down the same hole the pagans fell down. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/94 "2014-02-07T09:48:22Z")
Isis Osirus Horus trinity is old paganism the Christians copied same as Christmas day etc ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/95 "2014-02-07T10:33:14Z")
Paganism isn’t an actual religion. It’s just a term used by Christians to denote ALL other religions that aren’t Abrahamic. So it would be clearer to speak of ancient Egyptians than ‘pagans’. Besides that I am unaware that Isis, Osiris and Horus formed an actual trinity. Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/96 "2014-02-08T04:33:38Z")
**Trinopus** what sort of explanation are you looking for? I don’t think it can be explained, but I can offer analogies. For example, a clonal plant which has three stems and a common root system (I study plants). You could, and people do, choose to look at that as one individual or as three, depending on what properties you choose to focus on. **Czarcasm** They’re wrong? I’m not orthodox enough in my belief to feel comfortable myself calling anyone a heretical Christian, but that is the term a Catholic or Orthodox Christian would use for any of those groups (and to a lesser extent for any Protestant church, including my own). If someone believes that Jesus Christ was the fullest revelation of God, and that he lived and died to redeem us, I’ll call them a Christian of sorts. I will say that they’re wrong about the nature of God, same as I would say for different reasons that, say, Calvinists are wrong to believe in predestination, once-saved-always-saved, etc. **Marmite Lover** Yes, I know. Muslims consider Christians polytheists. I think they’re incorrect. If I thought they were right, I’d be a Muslim. John of Damascus has some pithy remarks refuting Islamic criticisms of the Trinity, I think it’s called “Against the Ishmaelites”. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/97 "2014-02-08T05:50:51Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **Trinopus** what sort of explanation are you looking for? I don’t think it can be explained, but I can offer analogies. For example, a clonal plant which has three stems and a common root system (I study plants). You could, and people do, choose to look at that as one individual or as three, depending on what properties you choose to focus on. . . . As far as metaphors go, I’m fond of the triple point of water, where liquid water, steam, and ice all co-exist. However…ultimately, I have to reject Trinitarian thinking. It’s too ad hoc. It makes nonsense of individuality. It violates too many tenets of rational thinking. It leads in the direction of the mystical wing of the church, and steals legitimacy from the rationalist wing. Christianity has a problem already with its mystics: the Bible Code believers and other numerologists, and others who would turn the faith into an oracular cult. To my mind, Trinitarian thinking goes too far in those directions. That said, I did admire Dante’s vision of the Trinity at the end of the Divine Comedy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/98 "2014-02-08T16:14:17Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **Marmite Lover** Yes, I know. Muslims consider Christians polytheists. I think they’re incorrect. If I thought they were right, I’d be a Muslim. Ummm, no. You would just be someone who thinks that Christians are polytheists. Since I think that most (but certainly not all) Christians are polytheists, does that make _me_ a Muslim? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/99 "2014-02-08T16:29:37Z")
The whole Trinity concept tends to make me imagine a three headed god that talks like the Borg. “WE ARE THE LORD. YOU WILL BE CONVERTED. LOWER YOUR SKEPTICISM AND PREPARE TO BE PROSELYTIZED. RESISTANCE IS SINFUL.” ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/100 "2014-02-08T17:54:20Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Isis Osirus Horus > > trinity is old paganism the Christians copied same as Christmas day etc Alexander Hislop warmed over. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373.md?page=6)