# The mystery of the trinity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373 "2014-02-02T20:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/101 "2014-02-14T17:54:45Z")
I don’t know why it is so hard for some athiests to accept that christians and religions of all types simply explain things in ways that make sense within our limits of comprehension. Maybe the trinity really represents the ability of a supreme being to be perfectly 100% objective in making decisions. Who we call the father is the creator, he only conisders the greater good in his plan for the universe. The son or Jesus can relate to us and work with us but only within the bounds of his human self. The holy ghost would only concern himself with the spirititual aspect and not have any affect or even concern himself with the physical things going on. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/102 "2014-02-15T01:10:06Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > The son or Jesus can relate to us and work with us but only within the bounds of his human self. We can comprehend that just fine. It’s called a prophet. Jesus claimed to\* be\* God. That is incomprehensible and irrational. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/103 "2014-03-28T23:53:45Z")
“People swarm everywhere [in Constantinople], talking of incomprehensible matters, in hovels, streets and squares, marketplaces and crossroads. When I ask how many oboloi I have to pay, they answer with hairsplitting arguments about the born and the unborn. If I inquire the price of bread, I am told that the Father is greater than the Son. I call a servant to tell me whether my bath is ready; he rejoins that the Son was created out of nothing.” – [Gregory of Nyssa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Nyssa) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/104 "2014-03-28T23:58:25Z")
From [_Lest Darkness Fall,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lest_Darkness_Fall) by L. Sprague de Camp (a _Connecticut Yankee_ story – 20th-Century American archaelogist Martin Padway finds himself transported by a bolt of lightning to 6th-Century Rome; in need of money, he has just invented/introduced the process of distilling wine into brandy): > [@](#): > > The joint was in the theater district on the north side of the Capitoline. The “music” was furnished by a young woman who twanged a harp and sang songs in Calabrian dialect, which the cash customers seemed to find very funny. > > “Let’s drink to --” Thomasus started to say “success” for the thirtieth time, but changed his mind. “Say, Martinus, we’d better buy some of this lousy wine, or he’ll have us thrown out. How does this stuff mix with wine?” At Padway’s expression, he said: “Don’t worry, Martinus, old friend, this is on me. Haven’t made a night of it in years. You know, family man.” He winked and snapped his fingers for the waiter. When he had finally gotten through his little ceremony, he said: “Just a minute, Martinus, old friend, I see a man who owes me money. I’ll be right back.” He waddled unsteadily across the room. > > A man at the next table asked Padway suddenly: “What’s that stuff you and old one-eye have been drinking, friend?” > > “Oh, just a foreign drink called brandy,” said Padway uneasily. > > “That’s right, you’re a foreigner, aren’t you? I can tell by your accent.” He screwed up his face, and then said: “I know; you’re a Persian. I know a Persian accent.” > > “Not exactly,” said Padway. “Farther away than that.” > > “That so? How do you like Rome?” The man had very large and very black eyebrows. > > “Fine, so far,” said Padway. > > “Well, you haven’t seen anything,” said the man. “It hasn’t been the same since the Goths came.” He lowered his voice conspiratorially: “Mark my words, it won’t be like this always, either!” > > “You don’t like the Goths?” > > “No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!” > > “Persecution?” Padway raised his eyebrows. > > “Religious persecution. We won’t stand for it forever.” > > “I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased.” > > “That’s just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going about their business unmolested, as if they owned the country. If that isn’t persecution, I’d like to know what is!” > > “You mean that you’re persecuted because the heretics and such are not?” > > “Certainly, isn’t that obvious? We won’t stand – What’s your religion, by the way?” > > “Well,” said Padway, “I’m what in my country is called a Congregationalist. That’s the nearest thing to Orthodoxy that we have.” > > “Hm-m-m. We’ll make a good Catholic out of you, perhaps. So long as you’re not one of these Maronites or Nestorians–” > > “What’s that about Nestorians?” said Thomasus, who had returned unobserved. “We who have the only logical view of the nature of the Son – that He was a man in whom the Father indwelt --” > > “Nonsense!” snapped Eyebrows. “That’s what you expect of half-baked amateur theologians. Our view – that of the dual nature of the Son – has been irrefutably shown --” > > “Hear that, God? As if one person could have more than one nature --” > > “You’re all crazy!” rumbled a tall, sad-looking man with thin yellow hair, watery blue eyes, and a heavy accent. “We Arians abhor theological controversy, being sensible men. But if you want a sensible view of the nature of the Son --” > > “You’re a Goth?” barked Eyebrows tensely. > > “No, I’m a Vandal, exiled from Africa. But as I was saying” – he began counting on his fingers – “either the Son was a man, or He was a god, or He was something in between. Well, now, we admit He wasn’t a man. And there’s only one God, so He wasn’t a god. So He must have been --” > > About that time things began to happen too fast for Padway to follow them all at once. Eyebrows jumped up and began yelling like one possessed. Padway couldn’t follow him, except to note that the term “infamous heretics” occurred about once per sentence. Yellow Hair roared back at him, and other men began shouting from various parts of the room: “Eat him up, barbarian!” “This is an Orthodox country, and those who don’t like it can go back where they --” “Damned nonsense about dual natures! We Monophysites --” “I’m a Jacobite, and I can lick any man in the place!” “Let’s throw all the heretics out!” “I’m a Eunomian, and I can lick any two men in the place!” Padway saw something coming and ducked, the mug missed his head by an inch and a half. When he looked up the room was a blur of action. Eyebrows was holding the self-styled Jacobite by the hair and punching his face; Yellow Hair was swinging four feet of bench around his head and howling a Vandal battle song. Padway hit one champion of Orthodoxy in the middle; his place was immediately taken by another who hit Padway in the middle. Then they were overborne by a rush of men. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/105 "2014-03-28T23:59:32Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I don’t know why it is so hard for some athiests to accept that christians and religions of all types simply explain things in ways that make sense within our limits of comprehension. Because there’s often “Gosh, we just don’t know, such is the limits of our ability to comprehend the divine.” on one side, and “God is this. God is that.” on the other. Incomprehension as an excuse rarely gets the all-encompassing usage it probably should do. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/106 "2014-03-30T11:37:56Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > We can comprehend that just fine. It’s called a prophet. Jesus claimed to\* be\* God. That is incomprehensible and irrational. If one reads John 10, they can understand that when Jesus was accused of blasphemy, He quoted the psalmist:" It says in YOUR Law(( Not God’s); I said you are gods, so why do you accuse me of Blasphemy,because I call God my father. when your father’s did". Sounds to me that he didn’t consider himself any different than any other man. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/107 "2014-03-30T12:52:02Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If one reads John 10, they can understand that when Jesus was accused of blasphemy, He quoted the psalmist:" It says in YOUR Law(( Not God’s); I said you are gods, so why do you accuse me of Blasphemy,because I call God my father. when your father’s did". Sounds to me that he didn’t consider himself any different than any other man. Yeah, if you take that one verse, by itself, and don’t read any more of the Gospel of John. Or any other of the Gospels. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/108 "2014-03-31T12:15:16Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Yeah, if you take that one verse, by itself, and don’t read any more of the Gospel of John. Or any other of the Gospels. It was after reading more of what Jesus was quoted as saying I found many contradictions. If Jesus were truly God in any other sense, he sure didn’t seem to know a lot. Of course I don’t believe the Bible is the word of God, it can be proven that it was the work and teachings of other human beings. It is based on faith not fact. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/109 "2014-03-31T14:26:15Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It was after reading more of what Jesus was quoted as saying I found many contradictions. If Jesus were truly God in any other sense, he sure didn’t seem to know a lot. Of course I don’t believe the Bible is the word of God, it can be proven that it was the work and teachings of other human beings. It is based on faith not fact. Please forgive me if I don’t bow to your supremacy over Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/110 "2014-03-31T17:08:32Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It was after reading more of what Jesus was quoted as saying I found many contradictions. If Jesus were truly God in any other sense, he sure didn’t seem to know a lot. Of course I don’t believe the Bible is the word of God, it can be proven that it was the work and teachings of other human beings. It is based on faith not fact. My take on this is Jesus is the child God, not the parent God. A child needs to be a child, not a smaller tri-omni God, but a true child and learn their own identity along their journey, with mistakes already anticipated by the parent and with all contingency plans in place - we are after all taking about God here. God in the entirety is parent and child (and the bond between them, the Holy Spirit). I extend this further, as we are all children of God, and we will all realize this and everything we have already done was anticipated and planned for by our parent God, therefor once we realize we are God’s child we are sinless, because everything that came before lead us tot hat realization that it was in the parents plan for us and we never deviated from it. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/111 "2014-04-01T12:44:28Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Please forgive me if I don’t bow to your supremacy over Jesus. Can you prove it wasn’t written and called the word of God by Humans? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/112 "2014-04-01T12:50:12Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My take on this is Jesus is the child God, not the parent God. A child needs to be a child, not a smaller tri-omni God, but a true child and learn their own identity along their journey, with mistakes already anticipated by the parent and with all contingency plans in place - we are after all taking about God here. God in the entirety is parent and child (and the bond between them, the Holy Spirit). > > I extend this further, as we are all children of God, and we will all realize this and everything we have already done was anticipated and planned for by our parent God, therefor once we realize we are God’s child we are sinless, because everything that came before lead us tot hat realization that it was in the parents plan for us and we never deviated from it. If we humans (who don’t know all things even before they happened and acted like the Bible says God did, We would put such a human in Jail. Humans can’t know things before they happen, Just guess , but I don’t think a loving, all knowing all powerful being would create a monster that he knew ahead of time would cause the death of his other children, Kill innocent children because he was mad at the humans he created with faults, knew it, then punished them for being as he knew ahead of time what and how they would do things. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/113 "2014-04-01T12:54:54Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My take on this is Jesus is the child God, not the parent God. A child needs to be a child, not a smaller tri-omni God, but a true child and learn their own identity along their journey, with mistakes already anticipated by the parent and with all contingency plans in place - we are after all taking about God here. God in the entirety is parent and child (and the bond between them, the Holy Spirit). > > I extend this further, as we are all children of God, and we will all realize this and everything we have already done was anticipated and planned for by our parent God, therefor once we realize we are God’s child we are sinless, because everything that came before lead us tot hat realization that it was in the parents plan for us and we never deviated from it. As a further quote This is just a belief not proven to be true and surely not the actions of a good parent. How can a loving all knowing Being treat it’s children like a monster parent would do if he were mere human. I would not punish a month old baby, but your idea of a God would. How and what God is said to do is not the work of a loving being but the work of human beings, That is a proven fact. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/114 "2014-04-01T13:06:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My take on this is Jesus is the child God, not the parent God. A child needs to be a child, not a smaller tri-omni God, but a true child and learn their own identity along their journey, with mistakes already anticipated by the parent and with all contingency plans in place - we are after all taking about God here. God in the entirety is parent and child (and the bond between them, the Holy Spirit). > > I extend this further, as we are all children of God, and we will all realize this and everything we have already done was anticipated and planned for by our parent God, therefor once we realize we are God’s child we are sinless, because everything that came before lead us tot hat realization that it was in the parents plan for us and we never deviated from it. That is your belief and you have every right to believe it. But human father that acted like your God does he would be put in Jail. We seem to expect more of human beings who do not know the future, nor the mind of others than we expect of a supreme Being. I am just human and I would never treat my children like your God is said to have done and does. I would not create a monster that I knew would Destroy any of my children, nor would I punish a tiny baby for doing what they do. Were I was as Hitler’s mother I would not conceive such a being that I knew would do as Hitler did. I would expect a Supreme Being to do better than me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/115 "2014-04-01T14:25:43Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Yeah, if you take that one verse, by itself, and don’t read any more of the Gospel of John. Or any other of the Gospels. BTW, [here’s](http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/did_jesus_think_he_was_god_new_insights_on_jesus_own_self_image/) a discussion of whether Jesus believed he was God, excerpted from [_How Jesus Became God,_](http://www.amazon.com/dp/0061778184/?tag=saloncom08-20) by Bart D. Ehrman. He concludes Jesus believed he was the Messiah but **not** God. And any Jew will tell you the Messiah is not in any sense God, and Jesus was first and last a nice Jewish boy – when he prayed, he would not have done the hands-clasping thing, he would have done the head-bobbing thing. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/116 "2014-04-02T11:53:52Z")
If One takes the entire Bible into account, it still is just the word, work, and belief of other humans. Why is the Bible anymore God’s work or inspiration than the Words of Muhammad? Jesus is quoted as saying Scriptures were good for teaching, and in John 10 He calls the O T YOUR LAW, not Gods. It is a proven fact that Humans called the Bible God’s word and was inspired by God. In reality we take the words of another human. One of the reasons there are so many different religions. The many divisions of Christianity also bear this out. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/117 "2014-04-02T13:20:31Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Can you prove it wasn’t written and called the word of God by Humans? It was written by humans & called the Word of God. Because it was the Word of God. And there is enough evidence to convince me, but not you. So I can prove it to myself but not to you. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/118 "2014-04-02T14:32:27Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If One takes the entire Bible into account, it still is just the word, work, and belief of other humans. Why is the Bible anymore God’s work or inspiration than the Words of Muhammad? Jesus is quoted as saying Scriptures were good for teaching, and in John 10 He calls the O T YOUR LAW, not Gods. > > It is a proven fact that Humans called the Bible God’s word and was inspired by God. In reality we take the words of another human. One of the reasons there are so many different religions. The many divisions of Christianity also bear this out. The Bible makes it clear that every act of creation is from God, this includes the Bible, but also includes all other books and writings. So the question is not if the Bible is the Word of God, because everything is, but the question is it’s purpose, why it was given to us. The answer is that it is for instruction. So is everything else, but it is the lessons that differ, or at least the teaching method used to reach a people. [QUOTE= John 1:3] Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [/QUOTE] So the answer has always been instead of trying to elevate the Bible above other scared texts, but to raise other sacred texts up to the level of the Bible - because it is all from God. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/119 "2014-04-02T16:10:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Bible makes it clear that every act of creation is from God, this includes the Bible, but also includes all other books and writings. That would appear to preclude free will, at least that of writers. And of all artists. You don’t really believe that, do you? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373/120 "2014-04-02T16:39:23Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I don’t know why it is so hard for some athiests to accept that christians and religions of all types simply explain things in ways that make sense within our limits of comprehension. > > Maybe the trinity really represents the ability of a supreme being to be perfectly 100% objective in making decisions. Who we call the father is the creator, he only conisders the greater good in his plan for the universe. The son or Jesus can relate to us and work with us but only within the bounds of his human self. The holy ghost would only concern himself with the spirititual aspect and not have any affect or even concern himself with the physical things going on. Occam’s razor…The trinity is a complex construct, created to allow a person to “claim” to still being monotheist as required by a previous religious edict while still having the benefit of multiple gods to fill out the plot line. You get all of the upgrades of polytheism without the risk of a crisis of faith. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mystery-of-the-trinity/680373.md?page=7)