# The mythology/historicity of the Hebrew exodus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349 "2009-12-15T13:41:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/61 "2009-12-16T19:11:43Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Is there extrabiblical evidence for the Babylonian captivity and or the return? The Kurash (Cyrus) Prism matches the first part of the book of Ezra fairly well. [Link.](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/539cyrus1.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/62 "2009-12-16T20:11:30Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > I have often wondered why there is no mention of the pyramids in the Bible. For people who claimed to have lived in the region how could you miss them? I dunno. Why did Marco Polo’s book never mention the Great Wall of China? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/63 "2009-12-16T20:53:26Z")
monavis: > [@](#): > > Plus according to Exodus the Pharoh and all his men drowned, but the mummy of Ramses the 2d showed he live to be 90 years old and they have his tomb( and now the tombs of all of his sons.) Irrelevant. Even Biblical literalists do not think Rameses II was the Pharaoh of the Exodus. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/64 "2009-12-16T22:01:51Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > monavis: > > Irrelevant. Even Biblical literalists do not think Rameses II was the Pharaoh of the Exodus. Some do, actually. This is because Exodus says that the Jews were forced to build the city of Pi-Rameses which named after him, and built during his reign. I believe he was also the Pharaoh depicted in DeMille’s _Ten Commandments_ movie, which is where a lot of people get the bulk of their information about the Exodus, so the popular identification of Rameses II as the Pharaoh of the Exodus is definitely out there. The big hurdle to this identification, of course, is that he didn’t drown in the Red Sea, and tourists can go see his mummy. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/65 "2009-12-16T22:12:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Some do, actually. This is because Exodus says that the Jews were forced to build the city of Pi-Rameses which named after him, and built during his reign. I believe he was also the Pharaoh depicted in DeMille’s _Ten Commandments_ movie, which is where a lot of people get the bulk of their information about the Exodus, so the popular identification of Rameses II as the Pharaoh of the Exodus is definitely out there. > > The big hurdle to this identification, of course, is that he didn’t drown in the Red Sea, and tourists can go see his mummy. Speaking of tourists - the mummy of his predecessor Ramesses I ended up gracing a tourist freakshow in Niagra Falls for a century. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/66 "2009-12-16T23:13:09Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > The Kurash (Cyrus) Prism matches the first part of the book of Ezra fairly well. [Link.](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/539cyrus1.html) > [@](#): > > I am Kurash [“Cyrus”], King of the World, Great King, Legitimate King, King of Babilani, King of Kiengir and Akkade, King of the four rims of the earth, Son of Kanbujiya, Great King, King of Hakhamanish, Grandson of Kurash, Great king, King of Hakhamanish, descendant of Chishpish, Great king, King of Hakhamanish, of a family which always exercised kingship; whose rule Bel and Nebo love, whom they want as king to please their hearts. When I entered Babilani as a friend and when I established the seat of the government in the palace of the ruler under jubilation and rejoicing, Marduk, the great lord, induced the magnanimous inhabitants of Babilani to love me, and I was daily endeavoring to worship him… As to the region from as far as Assura and Susa, Akkade, Eshnunna, the towns Zamban, Me-turnu, Der as well as the region of the **Gutians,** I returned to these sacred cities on the other side of the Tigris the sanctuaries of which have been ruins for a long time, the images which used to live therein and established for them permanent sanctuaries. I also gathered all their former inhabitants and returned them to their habitations. Furthermore, I resettled upon the command of Marduk, the great lord, all the gods of Kiengir and Akkade whom Nabonidus had brought into Babilani to the anger of the lord of the gods, unharmed, in their former temples, the places which make them happy. “Gutians” = Judaeans? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/67 "2009-12-16T23:20:31Z")
Not really relevant other than it’s about biblical archaeology, but not really worth its own thread either so I’ll share here: [Archaeologists discover the remains of a burial shroud from the time of Jesus.](http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/16/mideast.ancient.shroud/index.html) The remains wrapped inside were of a man who suffered from both leprosy and tuberculosis (though judging from the shroud he was from a well to do household). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/68 "2009-12-16T23:21:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “Gutians” = Judaeans? [No.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/69 "2009-12-17T01:00:02Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Speaking of tourists - the mummy of his predecessor Ramesses I ended up gracing a tourist freakshow in Niagra Falls for a century. IIRC, we really don’t know who that was. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/70 "2009-12-17T01:25:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > IIRC, we really don’t know who that was. But being mummified with both arms crossed is a pretty good indicator that a New Kingdom mummy was one of a pharaoh. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/71 "2009-12-17T01:55:06Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Plus according to Exodus the Pharoh and all his men drowned, but the mummy of Ramses the 2d showed he live to be 90 years old and they have his tomb( and now the tombs of all of his sons.) No: the Exodus story says that the pursuing army was drowned, but does not mention the fate of Pharoah. > [@MrDribble](#): > > This is simply not true. For instance, the Aubin Codex version of the history of the Mexica(Aztec) has them fleeing enslavement by tyrannical rulers in Aztlán, their place of origin. That’s news to me, and thanks for bringing it to my attention. My question is: do we know whether that story has historical basis? That is, my initial point was that peoples didn’t make up humble origins; if we have a story of humble origins, it probably has some factual basis. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/72 "2009-12-17T02:02:13Z")
Disclaimer: I personally _don’t_ believe in the literal truth of Exodus (though I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it had some kernel of truth in [much less mystical and much smaller scale] real events), but one thing I’ve seen literalists point to is the ‘disappearance’ from historical records of Ramses II’s older brother and for that matter of his older sons (he had at very least dozens, by some accounts he had more than 100) which they equate with the death of the first born when pointing to either Seti I (Ram’s father) or Ramses II as the pharaoh of the Exodus. Of course there are any number of Egyptian princes who disappeared which is hardly surprising given how many there were and how primitive medicine was. Often we’re not even sure _who_ a given pharaoh was in connection to his predecessor, successor, or co-regnant. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/73 "2009-12-17T03:25:19Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > No: the Exodus story says that the pursuing army was drowned, but does not mention the fate of Pharoah.That’s news to me, and thanks for bringing it to my attention. My question is: do we know whether that story has historical basis? That is, my initial point was that peoples didn’t make up humble origins; if we have a story of humble origins, it probably has some factual basis. Exodus is not an origins story, it’s an escape from bondage story, and its a conquest story. The escape from bondage motif would make sense if it was constructed during the Babylonian captivity, just as Babylon was used as a setting for Daniel during the Seleucid occupation. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/74 "2009-12-17T05:40:50Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > That is, my initial point was that peoples didn’t make up humble origins; if we have a story of humble origins, it probably has some factual basis. Why would the writers of the Bible be thinking from the perspective of the Hebrew people as a whole? They were promoting a religion and a deity. From that perspective creating an origin myth where the Hebrews were miserable slaves until rescued by Yahweh makes a lot of sense. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/75 "2009-12-17T07:23:06Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > That’s news to me, and thanks for bringing it to my attention. My question is: do we know whether that story has historical basis? That is, my initial point was that peoples didn’t make up humble origins; if we have a story of humble origins, it probably has some factual basis. It’s **Dibble** , not Dribble. And no, we don’t know that the story has historic origins because a) it’s not the \*only \*Mexica origin story, others don’t feature the oppresive rulers; and b) there’s a history of vassalage for the historic Aztec/Mexica after they came to the Valley of Mexico and before they built their own empire anyway, so this may just be backwards projection of recent conditions (Note: the same argument could be applied to the Jews’ origin myth - a re-telling and projection of the Exile/Egyptian rule/Alexandrine rule/Persian rule into the past - it’s not like there aren’t other instances of duplication of stories in the Bible); and c)Aztlan has never been definitely identified. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/76 "2009-12-17T12:57:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Exodus is not an origins story, it’s an escape from bondage story, and its a conquest story. > > The escape from bondage motif would make sense if it was constructed during the Babylonian captivity, just as Babylon was used as a setting for Daniel during the Seleucid occupation. While the biblical text probably (almost certainly) had its final editing after the Babylonian Captivity, the J and E texts are probably (almost certainly) from much earlier, merged after the destruction of the northern kingdom (around 750 BCE.) And, my apologies, **MrDibble** , I did know better. Call it scribal error? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/77 "2009-12-17T14:32:52Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > But being mummified with both arms crossed is a pretty good indicator that a New Kingdom mummy was one of a pharaoh. Yup - it’s a pharaoh, but they can’t be 100% sure which one. Allegedly, there is at least some evidence pointing to Ramasses l. Enough at any rate to re-write _Ozymandius_ a bit: "look on my works (step right up, two bits a gander!) ye mighty … " 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/78 "2009-12-17T20:04:47Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > And, my apologies, **MrDibble** , I did know better. Call it scribal error? 🙂 I knew that. I just feel I have to always visibly correct people so the mis-spelling doesn’t become the _de facto_ standard, forcing me to officially change my name to **MrDribble**. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/79 "2009-12-18T01:38:15Z")
Diogenes: > [@](#): > > Some do, actually. This is because Exodus says that the Jews were forced to build the city of Pi-Rameses which named after him, and built during his reign. Even if that was so (and it’s possible that Rameses was a name in use in Egypt before any actual Pharaoh ruled by it), that only means that Rameses was the ruler at some point during the period of Hebrew servitude, not that he was the ruler at the end of that centuries-long time. > [@](#): > > I believe he was also the Pharaoh depicted in DeMille’s Ten Commandments movie, which is where a lot of people get the bulk of their information about the Exodus, so the popular identification of Rameses II as the Pharaoh of the Exodus is definitely out there. Jews may have been believed to control Hollywood, but those who were high up in Hollywood were not of the literal religious persuasion. The sources I’m familiar with amongst Orthodox Jewish Biblical literalists, at least, say that the Pharaoh of the Exodus was most likely Ay or Hemhoreb (who ruled before Rameses I, hence my earlier comment about Rameses). ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/80 "2009-12-18T08:13:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I knew that. I just feel I have to always visibly correct people so the mis-spelling doesn’t become the _de facto_ standard, forcing me to officially change my name to **MrDribble**. [They](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zklu9zyFlv4)call me Mr Dibble! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349.md?page=5)