# The mythology/historicity of the Hebrew exodus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349 "2009-12-15T13:41:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/81 "2009-12-18T12:56:49Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > No: the Exodus story says that the pursuing army was drowned, but does not mention the fate of Pharoah.That’s news to me, and thanks for bringing it to my attention. My question is: do we know whether that story has historical basis? That is, my initial point was that peoples didn’t make up humble origins; if we have a story of humble origins, it probably has some factual basis. In the Bible I read it said The Pharoh and all his men drowned. Maybe a new translation left that out. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/82 "2009-12-18T13:15:00Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > In the Bible I read it said The Pharoh and all his men drowned. Maybe a new translation left that out. As a post script:Chapter 15 verse 19 of Exodus states “the Pharao went in on horse back with his chariots and horsemen into the sea:but the children of Israel walked on dry ground in the midst thereof” So the Pharao was with his men when they drowned according to the author of Exodus. One verse earlier states that the bodies were seen on shore,if one reads the entire passages some of it contradicts the other, at least as I see it! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/83 "2009-12-18T13:22:56Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Diogenes: > > Even if that was so (and it’s possible that Rameses was a name in use in Egypt before any actual Pharaoh ruled by it), that only means that Rameses was the ruler at some point during the period of Hebrew servitude, not that he was the ruler at the end of that centuries-long time. > > Jews may have been believed to control Hollywood, but those who were high up in Hollywood were not of the literal religious persuasion. > > The sources I’m familiar with amongst Orthodox Jewish Biblical literalists, at least, say that the Pharaoh of the Exodus was most likely Ay or Hemhoreb (who ruled before Rameses I, hence my earlier comment about Rameses). All the Pharoh’s started their tombs before their death and there was none who built a tomb and didn’t use it, nor is there even any historical evidence that Moses was even a historical figure. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/84 "2009-12-18T14:14:45Z")
monavis: > [@](#): > > All the Pharoh’s started their tombs before their death and there was none who built a tomb and didn’t use it, nor is there even any historical evidence that Moses was even a historical figure. So? All I said was that Biblical Literalists do not believe that Rameses II was the Pharaoh at the time of the Exodus, so the existence of his mummy indicating long life rather than sudden drowning is irrelevant to the debate over the Exodus’s historicity. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/85 "2009-12-19T13:45:48Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > monavis: > > So? All I said was that Biblical Literalists do not believe that Rameses II was the Pharaoh at the time of the Exodus, so the existence of his mummy indicating long life rather than sudden drowning is irrelevant to the debate over the Exodus’s historicity. I under stand that, but there is no record of any Pharoh drowing and from what I have understood (I wasn’t there so I can’t say I know) The time indicated would be in the time of Ramses the 2d. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/86 "2009-12-19T19:26:18Z")
A question about the term “slavery” and the Hebrews as usually portrayed: In the Bible and in fiction the Hebrews don’t seem to have been privately owned (like Africans in the U.S. or like most slaves in Rome) but more of an underclass whose orders were given by pharaoh or his agents. Was this an actual type of slavery that was practiced in Egypt or elsewhere in the ancient world- i.e. an entire ethnic group is enslaved but to the _state_, not to individuals? The closest I can think of to it is the Mamluks but they came thousands of years later. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/87 "2009-12-20T05:18:25Z")
It’s not uncommon for the state to own slaves in cultures where slavery is practiced. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/88 "2009-12-20T10:22:10Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > In the Bible and in fiction the Hebrews don’t seem to have been privately owned (like Africans in the U.S. or **like most slaves in Rome** ) Do you have a cite for the proportions of state- vs privately-owned slaves in Rome? I mean, I know about household slaves and agricutural slaves, but I seem to recall both the mining & construction slaves as being state-owned. Anyway, the Spartan helots were also a class of state-owned slaves. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/89 "2009-12-20T15:31:39Z")
The Israeli nation begins when Abraham anwers the call of the Lord, and moves from UR (Babylon). The tribe winds up in what is now known as Israel. Later, the tribe moves into Egypt-and becomes enslaved. Moses comes along, and they leave to go back to Canaan. All of this travel over centuries, in an area that is small enough to walk across in a few days? Why was the land of Canaan so unknown to the Israelites? Later, a great Israeli king (Solomon) receives a visit from a rich and powerful ruler (the Queen of Sheba)-but nobody knows where Sheba is? many vexing questions! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/90 "2009-12-20T15:58:50Z")
To answer the last of your question, Sheba is now generally considered to be the Sabaean Kingdom in what’s now Yemen. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/91 "2009-12-20T16:36:13Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > If you think that the biblical account must be either literally true or have no truth at all, then you’ll argue for no truth at all. > … … no other primitive people sets their origin story as arising from slavery. Origin stories are always about the glory of the people, not about humble (below humble in that age) beginnings. > > some Hebrews (or some tribes) .. escaped slavery. This is what occurred to me as I read the earlier responses. Indeed one might just postulate a smallish band joining kin in Canaan; that they might have spent 38 years near desert because of political or military conditions (or even religious training!) seems not unlikely. One theory places the exodus just at the death ca 1335 BC of[Akhenaten](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten), famous for Egypt’s brief fling at monotheism. The King Tut whose tomb was famously opened by Howard Carter died only a few years after Akhenaten; he reverted to the earlier Egyptian religion; Atenists were “out of there” (indeed _might_ have _brought_ monotheism to Akhenaten earlier if one believes Genesis). A Moses of the Exodus era might well have been an Atenist, with the Jewish religion later turning Aten/Adonai into the Judaic God. A relic found in King Tut’s tomb resembles the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus. (Some conspiracy theorists believe Tut’s tomb contained papyrus records of the Exodus which were secreted by Howard Carter, with possible involvement of HM Gov’t or Rothschild family, but we needn’t get into all that.) A rule of thumb for picking between two chronologies for a myth is to take the more recent hypothesis (fall of Atenism rather than fall of Hyksos two centuries earlier). The _a priori_ chances for a legend to be true decrease with age, so the more recent event is likely to have higher _a posteriori_ as well. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/92 "2009-12-20T17:21:58Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > …We do have to reduce the numbers, thought. There is some argument that the word usually translated “thousands” might mean “tens” – I’m citing this from memory – and so we’d get a much smaller population, that might not have left much in the way of traces. > > It is not be surprising that there are no Egyptian records of a defeat (in whatever form) by a slave population. There are significant battles that we know from archaeological records did happen, that the pharoah’s lost, and that are not recorded in Egypt. The Egyptian kings recorded their triumphs (often exaggerated), not their defeats. > > Also arguing for some validity to the story are words/phrases/names in the Hebrew biblical text that clearly indicate Egyptian origin. And, of course, the oft-made argument: no other primitive people sets their origin story as arising from slavery. Origin stories are always about the glory of the people, not about humble (below humble in that age) beginnings. > > I think there’s little doubt that there were some Hebrews (or some tribes) who escaped slavery in Egypt and moved to Canaan. Building on that theory – and I am not a biblical scholar, I’m just supposing – if a small group of enslaved or oppressed people managed to escape and became successful as a tribe elsewhere, this can explain much of what we read and find: 1. Small and nomadic group – not much debris left behind in any one place. 2. Small uprising – not significant enough, but embarrasing to record in Egyptian history, so it’s not found. 3. Length of time of 40 years (more or less?), not 400 years like many settlements unearthed – a shortage of copius artifacts. 4. A nation arising from humble beginnings – I don’t find it all that incredible that historical redactors and tale-tellers used slavery in the story. If you start very small and lacking resources, it is something to boast about if you overcome great adversity and conquer other, more advanced societies. Indeed, it is a credit to your god, who is more powerful than the others. Rather than glorify a line of kings, they glorified their priests and prophets. Not much difference, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/93 "2009-12-20T18:08:16Z")
It’s fun to speculate, but there’s still no edience for any of it, and the presence of the Exodus story is still more easily explained as just a story loosely based on the Hksos expulsion and the campaigns of the Pharaoh Ahmose into Canaan. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/94 "2009-12-20T19:11:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Exodus is not an origins story, it’s an escape from bondage story, and its a conquest story. > > The escape from bondage motif would make sense if it was constructed during the Babylonian captivity, just as Babylon was used as a setting for Daniel during the Seleucid occupation. I disagree. It is very much an “origins” story and the conquest aspect only occurred in the passages that extended beyond the Torah/Pentateuch. Only Jacob’s (extended) family moved to Egypt under the watchful eye of Joseph. By the time that Moses is introduced, he actually has to spend a fair amount of time and effort persuading the Hebrews that they actually have their own God and that they are a “people” and not just a collection of slaves. Then, in the desert, there is the entire matter of establishing the orders of the tribes, the laws under which they will exists, and certainly and mst importantly, the establishing of the Covenant that makes them what they are. None of this argues a claim for a historical reality to the myth, but attempting to dismiss it as not being an “origins” tale is simply not supportable. All Jewish mythology and commentary, while looking back to Abraham as the ur-father, and Isaac and Jacob as important ancestors, looks to Moses as the founder. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/95 "2009-12-20T20:11:48Z")
It perhaps hasn’t been pointed out specifically enough in this thread, but while there is no archaeological evidence of the Exodus, there is evidence of various nomadic groups South of Canaan more-or-less peacefully migrating Northward into Canaan and gradually becoming the dominant political force. But by saying “South of Canaan”, I mean everywhere from the border of Egypt to the border of Assyria (Southern Iraq) in the East. There most likely were tribes that came from the border of Egypt, and it could be speculated that one or several of these tribes were enslaved by Egyptians, but this group would be nothing more than a minor and insignificant part of all of their tribes. Possibly as the various clans came together in upper Canaan their historical stories merged (gaining larger mythos) and the names of their various Yahweh/Baal/Moloch-style gods centralized on the name Yahweh. Political realities, luck, and social interaction is probably the only determining factor for what stories remained in the popular repertoire and what the name of their central god was. It’s entirely possible that a group which traced its history to Egypt picked up a story of slavery from a tribe that came from Assyria, and the details were mixed. But the point remains that it’s known that the people who became known as the Israelites came from all over, largely peacefully, in a slow migration over centuries of time. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/96 "2009-12-21T18:50:38Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > A relic found in King Tut’s tomb resembles the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus. Spielberg’s designers based the AoC from _Raiders_ ([pic](http://drzaius.ics.uci.edu/blogs/setbang/raiders_of_the_lost_ark_1.jpg)) on items from Tut’s tomb. ([This design](http://www.grahamphillips.net/Ark/Ark_5_files/ark_reconstruction.jpg) was taking a simple vessel and combining it with figures from elsewhere in the tomb; IIRC the original lid has a greyhound.) I’ve wondered about this since King Tut was the heir to Akhenaton and is thus contemporaneous to the traditional era of Moses; they definitely knew something about Egyptian temple decorations. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/97 "2009-12-21T19:22:38Z")
Once again, Egypt occupied Canaan for centuries. It’s completely unremarkable that Canaanite culture would refelect an Egyptian influence. Egyptian style, “ark” thrones (complete with cherbim) were also used by the Phoenicians, for instance. Incidentally, monotheism did not enter the Israelite picture until well after the alleged time of Moses (and even David). It’s unlikely that Akhenaton had even an indirect influence on Israelite monotheism. The Persians had more religious influence than the Egyptians did. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/98 "2009-12-21T20:43:20Z")
IIRC, when they built their own temple the Hebrews hired some of history’s first recorded interior decorators- Phoenicians- which is why they got a whole of mother-goddess pagan knick knacks like conch shells and pomegranates. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/99 "2009-12-21T23:18:59Z")
I thought the Jews were monolatrists rather than monotheists for quite a good long while, or am I completely wrong there? Did they ever have a tradition of worshipping gods other than YWH? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349/100 "2009-12-21T23:48:45Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Does the original Hebrew word translated as “slaves” really mean _slave_ slaves, as in chattel sold at auction, beaten with whips, etc.? Could it mean something less absolute, like being a subject population with no rights, having to pay a tribute in drafted labor, something like that? My understanding is that they were “national servants” rather than chattel. For example, when Moses is plucked from the river by Pharaoh’s daughter, she offers to pay his mother to nurse him. Normally, one does not pay chattel. It seemed to be the norm for the Jews to own their own livestock… something that is very unusual in a chattel slavery situation. Zev Steinhardt [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mythology-historicity-of-the-hebrew-exodus/521349.md?page=6)