# The Nahployment 'Crisis' **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 30, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117 "2021-04-30T19:07:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/181 "2021-05-04T01:44:27Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Sure, but firing somebody you’ve already got trained and already established as reliable, in favor of the cheapest new kid on the block, is not a decision made lightly. Some employers will do it anyway, some won’t; it’s not as obvious a decision as you make it out to be. Oh come on, we’re talking about minimum wage fast-food jobs here. The jobs just aren’t that hard to learn. My first job was as a cook at Pizza Hut. My first day, the guy who was supposed to train me called in sick, so a replacement manager gave me a five minute lecture on how to throw together a pizza, and I was off to the races. Everything else I needed to know I picked up along the way from the other cooks. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/182 "2021-05-04T01:58:09Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Oh come on, we’re talking about minimum wage fast-food jobs here. The jobs just aren’t that hard to learn. While there probably isn’t a steep learning curve, I’d say the ‘reliable’ part is important. Having someone who is going to show up every day and shows up sober is a definite plus in those types of jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/183 "2021-05-04T01:59:29Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s nonsense because the jobs aren’t equivalent. You have a large number of unskilled workers being replaced by a much smaller number of highly skilled professionals and skilled technicians. How many people do you think it takes to design automation software? How many years of education does that require? > [@octopus](#): > > Yeah, there is a big difference in ability on average between someone in their 40s or 50s who are running the cash register or monitoring the self service kiosk at McDonalds or WalMart and someone who designs and programs robots. > > What we will see is more real unemployment, more migration of unskilled work or labor, and more participation in the so-called gig economy. Each of you replied to a post I never wrote (apparently you read something along the lines of ‘_all those who lost their fast-food or Walmart jobs will start working as engineers_’ which of course isn’t in my post at all.) Seems rather like a waste of time for you both. In actuality I wrote about similar ‘lost jobs’ of the past, such as gas-station attendants, and then moved on to discuss the centrality of training and education for making transitions in changing economies. Lower-skilled workers displaced by automation can be trained to do useful work; the level of intelligence and skill and training needed for jobs of the emerging economy will vary widely. There will be a place for the less-skilled. \ > [@RickJay](#): > > Automation is an inevitability; most of the jobs that have ever existing in human history have been eliminated by machines, and yet to this day most people have jobs. The solution to the disruption crated by technology isn’t to prevent automation, it’s to give people the social safety net, mobility, and education to get past it. ^ Yes, this. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/184 "2021-05-04T02:02:53Z")
I wonder how much of the fast food worker shortage is due to the terrorists throughout the country that believe in verbally and sometimes physically assaulting fast food workers for enforcing the law and store policy. Plus, there is still is a pandemic going on and a lot of people in fast food are older with health conditions. There may be a lot of reasons no one wants those jobs at this point in time, and they may not be completely or even primarily economic. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/185 "2021-05-04T02:04:47Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > Having someone who is going to show up every day and shows up sober is a definite plus in those types of jobs. And yet, they don’t seem to price that into what they’ll pay people to do these jobs. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/AtjTRTKHDjg/hqdefault.jpg "Chris Rock Minimum Wage") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtjTRTKHDjg) ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/186 "2021-05-04T02:13:39Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > And yet, they don’t seem to price that into what they’ll pay people to do these jobs. But it’s not just minimum wage employees who can be unreliable. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/187 "2021-05-04T02:16:13Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > But it’s not just minimum wage employees who can be unreliable. But those are the ones we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/188 "2021-05-04T02:46:07Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > In actuality I wrote about similar ‘lost jobs’ of the past, such as gas-station attendants, and then moved on to discuss the centrality of training and education for making transitions in changing economies. Lower-skilled workers displaced by automation can be trained to do useful work; the level of intelligence and skill and training needed for jobs of the emerging economy will vary widely. There will be a place for the less-skilled. Maybe. I mean I’m already inundated with bloggers, content creators, influencers, coaches of various types, side-hustlers hocking their wares and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/189 "2021-05-04T02:57:29Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > If all fast food employees are paid $15 an hour, the prices of the food are going to rise to a point where the food itself is not worth the cost. A burger/fries/coke are already reaching that point… In-n-Out Burger’s starting pay for new employees is $17/hour. [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvvXYg5VoAAUZ83.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvvXYg5VoAAUZ83.jpg) Their most expensive sandwich, the Double-Double cheeseburger, is $4.19. With fries and a Coke, it’s $6.99. [![](https://www.slcmenu.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/In-N-Out-Burger-menu-2020-982x1024.jpg) ](https://www.slcmenu.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/In-N-Out-Burger-menu-2020-982x1024.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/190 "2021-05-04T03:23:57Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Actually not very many. Most office workers don’t really want to come back to the office. They like the lower cost of not commuting. They like the flexibility that WFH provides. The like the lack of micro managing from their bosses. I was reading an article about that recently. One of the first lines was, “When working at home begins to feel like living at work. . . .” That’s where I am, and have been for some time. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/191 "2021-05-04T03:34:56Z")
You got it! That’s why many chains use “metrics” and may cut hours (but rarely add them) based on the previous day’s business. My local newspaper printed a story about some carry-out restaurants taking orders for food that is never picked up, and while that’s not a new issue, it’s big enough right now to cause financial problems, especially for independent restaurants. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/192 "2021-05-04T03:40:32Z")
Can’t speak for anyone else, but where I live, a lot of grocery stores and other essential businesses were short of help a year ago this time, because so many of the teenagers’ parents made them quit their jobs, and the older adults who worked during the school day were needed at home, often to care for grandchildren who were no longer in school, or to supervise homeschooling if their parents couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/193 "2021-05-04T06:35:08Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Your pots, pans, knives and other utensils have undoubtedly amortized down to a cost of zero, but are a potentially significant cost for people starting out. > > Did you assign a value to your time? You may enjoy cooking, but it still takes some portion of your day. And if you are working 16 hour days and want to sleep and shower, then that time becomes even more valuable. Everyone should have some pots and pans, and thrift stores are great places to get them cheap. Spices are as big a cost. I used about 8 in the halibut I cooked tonight. For most things cooking at home doesn’t take any longer than going out, and I can read or check the mail on my phone while cooking. Plus I only cook half the time. If someone paid me to go to a restaurant that would be one thing. But I got stuck staying for dinner at one job, and I got nothing extra, plus mediocre food. Not a plus. Still, my point was that we measured the cost of eating at home, and it is lower than I thought it would be. ETA: If someone can’t cook/won’t cook that’s different. But both of us love to do it, so it is usually not stressful. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/194 "2021-05-04T09:44:54Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Why is this always framed as “It’s not economical to pay that much to the employees”, and never, “It’s no longer economical for the owners to expect the same level of profits they once had”? > > The cost of the meal is made up of material costs, employee pay, infrastructure costs (rent and such), and owner’s profit. Why is the employee’s pay the only part that anyone ever seems to worry about? Because many business operate on very tight margins and can’t pass additional costs onto their customers. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/195 "2021-05-04T11:44:36Z")
I went to the web site. After a search, I could find no exact wages listed. That may be due to the fact that location has a definite effect on wages. You can make a zillion dollars in California but need a gazillion dollars to live, so the sign you posted has no context. I did notice, however, that there is a distinct difference between full time and part time employees, and that is par for the course in the fast food business. Virtually all of the people serving you are part time. Full time employees are management and HQ people. So, and though I appreciate your point, your post is not the slam dunk that it first appears to be. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/196 "2021-05-04T12:47:06Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I did notice, however, that there is a distinct difference between full time and part time employees, and that is par for the course in the fast food business. Virtually all of the people serving you are part time. Full time employees are management and HQ people. Then take it from McDonald’s. They greeted the proposal for a $15 federal minimum wage [with a yawn](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-minimum-wage-increases-did-to-mcdonalds-restaurants-and-their-employees-11611862080). The minimum wage in DC is already at that level and a Big Mac isn’t hideously expensive there. And In-N-Out in Texas starts paying all its employees at least $11 and the food isn’t that expensive. You’re coming up with hypotheticals that don’t line up with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/197 "2021-05-04T12:58:53Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > You’re coming up with hypotheticals that don’t line up with reality. And even if it does happen that the prices at McDonalds skyrocket so much that they can no longer compete, and have to go out of business, so what? Businesses that simply cannot make a profit are _supposed_ to go out of business, to make room for new businesses that can compete and make a profit, “[Creative Destruction](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/creativedestruction.asp)” is supposed to be a part of capitalism, isn’t it? If the $5 burger model no longer works, clear the way for better restaurants that sell burgers people will actually pay $10 for. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/198 "2021-05-04T13:13:09Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > I was reading an article about that recently. One of the first lines was, “When working at home begins to feel like living at work. . . .” I get it. Some people have a real hard time separating work and home life. Some of us don’t at all. My bosses boss bought us all a book to read. Burnout - Overcoming the stress cycle. It seems mostly targeted at women, but can be applied to either gender I suppose. Anyway, ostensibly I think grand boss bought this for people that are burnt out from working from home. OK. Nice gesture. Doesn’t apply to me at all. Burnout will be if I’m called back into their office. 29 years is enough, I’ll work from home thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/199 "2021-05-04T13:25:33Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The minimum wage in DC is already at that level and a Big Mac isn’t hideously expensive there. I’m in Europe, where employees receive a livable minimum wage, indexed to increase with inflation. We have McDonald’s and Burger King and the like, and they aren’t charging fifteen euros for a cheeseburger. The American system is deeply out of whack. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/200 "2021-05-04T13:26:34Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > Having someone who is going to show up every day and shows up sober is a definite plus in those types of jobs. Is that really _that_ much of an issue? I mean, I keep hearing about how there are no good paying jobs, and we need safety nets, and all that stuff, and then I hear that employers can hardly find workers to fill their slots because too many are unreliable and/or show up high or drunk? I know those things aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive, but they do seem opposed to each other at the very least. . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=11)