# The Nahployment 'Crisis' **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 30, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117 "2021-04-30T19:07:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/423 "2021-05-10T15:20:35Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Tim Horton’s has been **cutting food quality** to compensate for high labor, and **losing customers. -** Let me guess. The marketing experts clowns never expected _that_. Ditto for the clowns at the top of the company. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/424 "2021-05-10T15:28:20Z")
Sam: ‘Raising pay will increase automation, leading to fewer workers.’ Henry Ford: ‘Yeah, about that. Wanna see what happened when I doubled wages in January 1914 while perfecting the assembly line?’ [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51170987569_31d854fe68_b.jpg "SmartSelect\_20210510-102218\_Chrome") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/68782016@N08/51170987569/) [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51171301850_15e6545996_b.jpg "2021-05-10\_10-27-48") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/68782016@N08/51171301850/) (The rise in cost/drop in production was due to WW1, but the secular trend came back once this distortion was removed.) [https://www.researchgate.net/figure/10-The-Ford-Motor-Company-Production-Data-1903-1916\_tbl5\_265619261](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/10-The-Ford-Motor-Company-Production-Data-1903-1916_tbl5_265619261) ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/425 "2021-05-10T15:33:16Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > A Wendy’s single burger combo where I live is now $13. A family of four is going to drop at least $50-$70 or so on a fast food meal with tip. How much is one expected to tip at Wendy’s? I fear I’m terribly out of step, because I don’t tip at ANY fast food place. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/426 "2021-05-10T15:36:30Z")
Your Ford example is a non-sequitur. No one disputes that ramping up assembly lines and tirelessly working on improving factors of production can result in higher worker productivity. Mostly, those workers became more productive because Ford invested heavily in his factories, allowjng each worker’s labor to be magnified. And he had to pay his workers more because there were shortages of good workers and rapid turnover was eating his lunch in training costs. Now try the same experiment for farm workers. Automation eliminated 90% of farm labor. We are headed for a future where fast-food work will consist mostly of two or three people overseeing a number of machines doing the actual work. They will probably get paid more, need training, and worker productivity in the industry will improve. There will just be far fewer workers. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/427 "2021-05-10T15:41:29Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Let me guess. The marketing experts clowns never expected _that_ . Ditto for the clowns at the top of the company. Tim Horton’s is a well marketed company, from the perspective of the marketing side of things like advertising. In terms of product design, though, the chain is trying desperately to keep up with a market in Canada that keeps presenting the customer with new choices. Surprise surprise, a coffee joint doesn’t make the finest lunches. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/428 "2021-05-10T15:56:47Z")
But I wouldn’t expect a minimum wage worker to be able to afford to eat out most nights, even at the more economical establishments (like Wendy’s or, as I prefer, Cracker Barrel). @Sam_Stone, you tip for fast food? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/429 "2021-05-10T15:57:24Z")
Here’s the Chipotle announcement: > **[Chipotle to hike wages, debut referral bonuses in attempt to hire 20,000 workers](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/10/chipotle-to-hike-wages-debut-referral-bonuses-amid-tight-labor-market.html)** > > Chipotle CEO Brian Niccol said the current labor market is among the most challenging he's seen in his career in the restaurant industry. Notice it’s an average of $15/hour in the USA, not everyone gets $15 minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/430 "2021-05-10T16:03:54Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I wouldn’t expect a minimum wage worker to be able to afford to eat out most nights, No, but should a meal out for a family at Wendy’s cost almost 20% of your weekly gross income? That’s the kind of spending recommended a family spend on rent (keep it under 30%) and this family could spend it on one meal per week at Wendy’s. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/431 "2021-05-10T16:07:25Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > No, but should a meal out for a family at Wendy’s cost almost 20% of your weekly gross income? A meal at Wendy’s shouldn’t cost $13 to begin with, according to… Wendy’s. > “It’s not sustainable for them to expect people to show up and spend $13 on a burger on a consistent basis,” said Kurt Kane, chief concept and marketing officer at Wendy’s Co., which is among the fast-food burger chains engaged in an intense price war to attract and keep their core, budget-conscious customers. Source: Fox Business article from 2017, “[Diners Are Finding $13 Burgers Hard to Swallow](https://www.foxbusiness.com/features/diners-are-finding-13-burgers-hard-to-swallow)”. If Wendy’s can’t afford to sell burgers at cheaper prices, the reasonable conclusion is that Wendy’s has an unsustainable business model. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/432 "2021-05-10T16:23:55Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > A Wendy’s single burger combo where I live is now $13. Your Wendy’s doesn’t have the 4 for $4? Or the new old $5 Biggie Bag? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/433 "2021-05-10T16:28:58Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > A Wendy’s single burger combo where I live is now $13. > > Your Wendy’s doesn’t have the 4 for $4? Or the new old $5 Biggie Bag? - > > ~Max He’s in Canada. $13 Canadian is currently 10.76 USD. [Wendy’s Menu Prices](https://www.fastfoodmenuprices.com/wendys-prices/) Closest match Dave’s Hot ‘n Juicy 3/4 lb. Triple with Cheese – Combo $10.36 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/434 "2021-05-10T16:36:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > We are headed for a future where fast-food work will consist mostly of two or three people overseeing a number of machines doing the actual work. They will probably get paid more, need training, and worker productivity in the industry will improve. There will just be far fewer workers. Right, and productivity improves, and productivity is where our wealth comes from. Those people will be displaced, but there is an increasing need for workers who interact with people. If the US has free pre-K, think of how many more pre-K teachers we’ll need. Also nursing for an aging population. Might be good to move some of these people into professions keeping people well from ones making them sick. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/435 "2021-05-10T16:40:44Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Tim Horton’s has been cutting food quality to compensate for high labor, Restaurants and other food suppliers have been trying to cut costs by using cheaper ingredients or reducing portion sizes or fiddling with the menu since forever; why are you implying that this is somehow new or a reaction solely to higher labor costs? For example, McDonalds used “lean beef trimmings” (a.k.a. “pink slime”) in its hamburgers for years, stopping use only due to public outcry amidst widespread publicity about the filler. Do you think they did so to improve the taste, or because pink slime was cheaper than grindings from better cuts of meat? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/436 "2021-05-10T16:56:57Z")
From the Wendy’s website, Dave’s Single at Wendy’s on Decarie Blvd, Montreal costs $5.89. Wendy’s of Yonge St, Toronto: $5.59. I’m not saying **Sam\_Stone** doesn’t know his own Wendy’s, just that this $13 Wendy’s burger is unusually expensive. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/437 "2021-05-10T17:00:02Z")
The Single combo, however, is $9.29 (Canadian, I assume) at the Montreal location. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/438 "2021-05-10T17:19:24Z")
Put a $3.71 tip on top of that, and there you go. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/439 "2021-05-10T17:43:04Z")
I mean, my mistake, I kinda started it, but pinning down Canadian prices of fast food doesn’t do much in helping us understand labor issues in the US. If I had to pay $15 for a baconator combo, though, I’d likely lose 10 pounds. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/440 "2021-05-10T17:51:09Z")
Hey… those Canadian Wendy’s prices… do they include tax? Or is another 6-12% tacked onto that $9 Single combo in Montreal? ETA: tax is not included in the above prices. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/441 "2021-05-10T17:59:03Z")
More accurately “no one would be productive doing the shit jobs that no one wants to do but still need doing.” Pretty sure Elon Musk would still be building self driving electric cars and Mars rockets even if he were earning UBI. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/442 "2021-05-10T20:01:10Z")
- From 1978 to 2013, CEO compensation, inflation-adjusted, increased 937 percent, a rise more than double stock market growth and substantially greater than the painfully slow 10.2 percent growth in a typical worker’s compensation over the same period. - The CEO-to-worker compensation ratio was 20-to-1 in 1965 and 29.9-to-1 in 1978, grew to 122.6-to-1 in 1995, peaked at 383.4-to-1 in 2000, and was 295.9-to-1 in 2013, far higher than it was in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s. They can’t cut any overhead? Just raise prices? That’s weird [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=23)