# The Nahployment 'Crisis' **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 30, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117 "2021-04-30T19:07:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/683 "2021-07-21T16:57:56Z")
I agree with you, but those are all reasons to support higher taxes even if it means you’ll pay more and qualify for few benefits (that’s me), or support student loan forgiveness despite the fact that you and your wife both paid off your student loans in full years ago or never had them in the first place (me again), or support property tax despite being a homeowner (hi!) None of those are reasons not to tell your kids that they should focus on their education to avoid these harder paths though. And you can and should definitely stress that people end up with these less desirable jobs for all kinds of reasons, and they certainly shouldn’t be judged for that. That’s a great message and it might help us be less dickish to each other so I fully support it. It doesn’t help a restaurant that’s finding very few people interested in working there, though. The only way it can increase its supply of workers is to make working there more desirable. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/684 "2021-07-21T17:15:11Z")
Agreed. And to make working there more desirable, I at least can try to support companies that pay their workers decent wages and benefits. And I can remember to treat their employees with the respect I hope they give to me. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/685 "2021-07-21T18:02:48Z")
> [@bump](#): > > More likely though is that they do some combination of those things he mentions, but none in a dramatic way, so that it’s not likely that it’s noticeable. Like they may drop portion size a hair, and raise the price a hair. I don’t think there’s much of a relationship between the cost of doing business and portion size. At least I’ve read that one of the reasons portion sizes are so large is because the cost to the restaurant is minimal. > [@Biotop](#): > > I believe we should teach that it is better to contribute to society and that the less help we need ourselves the more for someone else who needs it more. And that this “someone else” is no better or worse than we are. As an obnoxious child, whenever I tried to make fun of someone with a terrible job my mother would tell me, “At least he’s got a job and he’s not sitting on his ass at home.” Which was her way of telling me I should show a little respect. I was hoping the pandemic would demonstrate to more people how important workers are in the restaurant, grocery, and other businesses but people have short memories at times. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/686 "2021-07-21T18:54:48Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I guess my point is, the messaging about these jobs is negative, but the reality of working those jobs is often negative too. These jobs ARE more likely to be outsourced or automated. These jobs DO offer less job security, overall lower wages, and less prospect for growth in the future. They ARE generally harder on a day to day level. Why wouldn’t I give that information to the next generation as they decide what they want to do? And yet a lot of people are miserable in those “better” jobs; often without knowing why. A job sitting still indoors in an office is better work for some. It’s terrible for others. And many physical-labor jobs can’t be outsourced and are less likely to be automated than many of the office jobs. Far easier to outsource a computer job than a plumber. Many jobs – including some that aren’t physical labor – are also made much harder than they need to be specifically because the society doesn’t respect them. The food service workers in the NPR article are quitting in large part due to lack of respect making their working conditions terrible. The problem’s not the work – it’s the shit they’re supposed to take along with it. The problem for many truck drivers isn’t the work, whether driving or loading – it’s the relentless time pressure. For that matter, people stuck in cubicles with bad lighting, noise problems, and various sorts of hassle from bosses and sometimes co-workers are doing jobs that are made much harder than they ought to be. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/687 "2021-07-21T19:39:36Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > These workers are being paid to smile and so they better do it. David Mitchell on [QI holding forth on this very subject](https://youtu.be/4TVzeKZ2X-A?t=57). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/688 "2021-07-21T20:11:23Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That you need to work hard at your education so you can get a job that lets you make far more money, have far more job security and far better benefits, and is physically a lot easier. The problem is that that is also somewhat of a lie - I worked hard, got a college degree, and for awhile I did have a corporate desk job with Cadillac benefits, a pension, and a salary about three times what I’m currently earning. Great. And then that job was eliminated between out-sourcing and automation. There is NO job security anymore, for anyone. And once you’re past 35 it’s assumed you can’t be retrained so you can be thoroughly screwed that way, too. On the other hand, some other jobs - like car mechanic, plumber, electrician, etc. - it turns out can’t be outsourced so easily, or at all, and while not glamorous they actually are MORE secure than desk jobs are these days. Granted, those jobs ARE physically harder, but like I said, job security and they pay a wage you can live on, which is important. No use having a “desk job” or “office job” for 15 years of working life then being tossed on the garbage heap because you’ve been replaced by a machine, or your work has been sent halfway around the world. I mean, good for the folks in India who are the recipients of the out-sourced part of my old job, they deserve a good living, too, but meanwhile what the f\*\*\* are those of us here who are laid off supposed to do? (Note: I’ve found a new niche for myself, I’m good for right now, but what about all the other folks over 40 whose careers ended and never found a job as good as the one I currently have?) > [@Babale](#): > > I guess my point is, the messaging about these jobs is negative, but the reality of working those jobs is often negative too. These jobs ARE more likely to be outsourced or automated. These jobs DO offer less job security, overall lower wages, and less prospect for growth in the future. They ARE generally harder on a day to day level. Why wouldn’t I give that information to the next generation as they decide what they want to do? Absolutely you should tell your students the truth. Do you also inform them that no one knows what the job market will be like in 25 or 30 or 40 years and they need to keep that in mind? Because even desk/office jobs are being automated out of existence these days. They need to be prepared to re-invent themselves. I’m certain you’re already telling them that they can’t count on having the same job their entire working lives like people in the 1950’s did. Please mention that something that looks very secure and certain today may not exist in 30 years. > [@Biotop](#): > > Of course we want to give that information out. But a negative job does not equate with a negative person. These jobs need to be done and the people that do them deserve respect like anyone else. ^ This. I was taught that while some work is preferable to some other work, ALL work is honorable and all human beings should be respected. You should treat the people scrubbing toilets with the same respect and courtesy as you treat a doctor or lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/689 "2021-07-21T20:25:44Z")
The causes of why people are not going back to work are not necessarily simple or obvious. For example, on the left it’s supposedly a sign that these jobs were horrible and underpaid. On the right, it’s Joe Biden’s extra $300 benefit over minimum wage that’s doing it. But none of this explains it, really. For example, here in Edmonton our recreation centers have re-opened. But when they recalled the staff, 40% refused to return to work. These are not crap jobs. The lowest-paid of all the jobs open I could find was $19.61/hr. Most of them pay between $21 and $27 per hour. The jobs are things like ‘aquatic fitness supervisor’, lifeguards, youth workers, scheduling managers, program leaders for adult education and fitness, maintenance workers and the like. Good indoor jobs in new facilities and relatively high pay for people in their 20’s. And 40% of the people in those jobs aren’t coming back. It may be a complex response to fear of COVID, getting used to being out of the work force, money saved during the lockdown that makes it less urgent to work, or whatever. Here in Edmonton there are worker shortages in lots of places, and we don’t have the crazy UI benefits the U.S. has. Something else is going on, ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/690 "2021-07-21T20:27:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I was taught that while some work is preferable to some other work, ALL work is honorable and all human beings should be respected. You should treat the people scrubbing toilets with the same respect and courtesy as you treat a doctor or lawyer. Hear hear. In some ways, more. They’re doing a job that needs to be done that no one else wants to do. They deserve gratitude and respect. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/691 "2021-07-21T21:24:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Here in Edmonton there are worker shortages in lots of places, and we don’t have the crazy UI benefits the U.S. has. Something else is going on, > As the Canadian economy emerges from more than 15 months of COVID-19 restrictions and workers begin to return to the office, experts say a wave of employee resignations could trigger labour shortages in a variety of sectors. > > “We’re expecting to see a rise in attrition, really across all organizations,” said Steve Knox, vice-president of global talent acquisition for human resources firm Ceridian. > > Knox said employers are already encountering employees who are enjoying work-from-home and don’t want to return to office life, as well as employees who are burned out after a stressful year. He said some employees seem to have used the past 15 months to re-evaluate their life choices, and are now saying “I quit.” > **['I quit': Wave of resignations prompts concerns over labour shortage | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/labour-shortage-concerns-1.6093867)** > > As the Canadian economy emerges from more than 15 months of COVID-19 restrictions and workers begin to return to the office, experts say a wave of employee resignations could trigger labour shortages in a variety of sectors. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/692 "2021-07-21T21:26:35Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Well, I have no other explanations. But factories have been having a hard time getting new employees for quite a while. I can believe this. Kids have heard for years now that factory jobs are disappearing. Factory employment used to be stable and lifetime, but today why not get a job that won’t lay you and all your co-workers off at a moment’s notice? Maybe for high pay, but then there is an even higher chance of it getting shipped out of the country. Factory output in the US is up, but employment isn’t, due to automation.So it’s not surprising it is no longer an attractive field. As for cameras, I’ve been in lots of Western Electric factories, and while there was no military work it was all considered proprietary and someone taking pictures would wind up in trouble. So you’re right about that. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Many jobs – including some that aren’t physical labor – are also made much harder than they need to be specifically because the society doesn’t respect them. The food service workers in the NPR article are quitting in large part due to lack of respect making their working conditions terrible. The problem’s not the work – it’s the shit they’re supposed to take along with it. The problem for many truck drivers isn’t the work, whether driving or loading – it’s the relentless time pressure. For that matter, people stuck in cubicles with bad lighting, noise problems, and various sorts of hassle from bosses and sometimes co-workers are doing jobs that are made much harder than they ought to be. This covers all kinds of jobs. When I started to work 40 years ago in a very white collar job it was 9 to 6, and when I went home it was done. When I retired my job involved checking email at night, and lots of people were more driven than I was. We’ve spent decades getting every bit of work out of all kinds of workers, we’ve had them be monitored, we’ve had the stress increase. We’ve seen lots of articles and threads about burn out. Is it surprising, that once a lot of people have remembered what not being tired all the time feels like, that they don’t want to go back to it? We’ve had anti-MW people here who think it would be great to cut pay more. You think someone working for a person with that attitude doesn’t realize it? Then they complain about having to pay more, and whine about people not wanting to come back to work for them. I consider this an unorganized but countrywide strike by workers for better conditions. Long overdue. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/693 "2021-07-21T21:48:53Z")
Not just working conditions, IMO. There is a great deal about the society we have built that is unsatisfactory to a very large number of people. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/694 "2021-07-21T22:20:40Z")
That’s always been the case and I don’t see any evidence (yet) that today is any different from the past. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/695 "2021-07-21T22:24:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But none of this explains it, really. For example, here in Edmonton our recreation centers have re-opened. But when they recalled the staff, 40% refused to return to work. An implicit assumption here is that the 40% who “refused to return to work” are sitting at home doing nothing rather than having just found another job. If I were running a business that laid people off, and then I needed workers again a year later, I would certainly not assume that 100% of those people I was not providing work to for a year would still be waiting patiently for me to get back to them. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/696 "2021-07-21T22:35:54Z")
As the OP, just want to note that my daughter went back to ‘gainful employment’ working as a barista making about $50k/year w/ health and retirement benefits. Yes she has a boss and early hours, etc, but the job PAYS enough for her to understand that the trade-off is worth it, helping her achieve her other goals, such as gaining in-state residency, living in Manhattan, etc.) Pay isn’t the only issue, of course, but Sophia is wise enough to understand that her job is a means to an end, and not the destination itself. And she says her employer understands that, allowing a (to her) generous time off policy, especially for students. You join Amazon and it’s all “let’s reorient your life to be about serving the corporation”, but my daughter wants a job which says “we have tasks for which we will pay well, while you pursue your life’s ambitions elsewhere.” And I think if you had more employers who understood that we want the latter more than the former, you may have more people willing to get back to work instead of gigging for money. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/697 "2021-07-21T22:51:56Z")
With so many businesses struggling to find workers, how are those ex-workers able to pay the bills? It seems like many of the low-end employers like restaurants and retail can’t get anyone to work or even interview for the openings. As those employees would have typically been paycheck-to-paycheck and not able to save significant amounts, how are they able to pay their bills if they aren’t working? It’s understandable not wanting to work fast food and holding out for a job with better pay and conditions, but the bills will keep piling up. I can’t imagine that the fast food workers from before the pandemic all got cushy office jobs now and there’s no one to backfill the fast food jobs. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/698 "2021-07-21T22:55:02Z")
As I noted (it’s a long thread), there is a vast underground economy which is accessible through cell phones where you can connect for gig work of almost any sort, from tutoring to photography to reselling. Many of the people you mention are paying their bills via those methods. I know one person who knows how much they need in cash to pay rent and utilities, works for that amount, and then does about $1-2k a month in surveys, getting paid in Amazon gift cards. That’s his grocery, clothes, etc money. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/699 "2021-07-21T23:16:53Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > With so many businesses struggling to find workers, how are those ex-workers able to pay the bills? Some are doing gig work, as already mentioned. Some have found other jobs of some other sort. Some have moved back in with family and thus no longer have as many bills as they used to. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/700 "2021-07-21T23:17:43Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > With so many businesses struggling to find workers, how are those ex-workers able to pay the bills? By working at other jobs that more suit their goals. I don’t discount the idea that certain people would choose not to work entirely, but when low level workers can’t find jobs no one interprets that as, “businesses are letting roles go unfilled because they are too picky” but instead as “the roles are filled, just by other people”. It only seems fair to do the same when jobs can’t find workers. It seems like the narrative is always against the (low-end) worker. If there is a labour surplus, it is because the workers are unskilled/uncompetitive/need to not demand as much. If there is a labour shortage it is because the workers are lazy/suckling at the teat of government largess/can’t stay off their phones. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/701 "2021-07-21T23:27:38Z")
The smartest kid I grew up with got razzed a lot because he wanted to be a truck driver. After he graduated as valedictorian, he got an associate’s degree in diesel mechanics from a local community college, and worked in that field for a few years and later became a teacher at that school, and has done this for about 30 years. I bet employees see where they got their training, and tell interviewees, “I don’t have to talk to you any longer, because I know you got an excellent education there.” One of my colleagues also had a son who graduated with honors about 10 years ago, and to his parents’ surprise, because he’d never really expressed all that much interest in cars, went to auto body repair school, which was a highly intensive 18-month program. My co-worker is still on Facebook, and last I heard, this son is still working in that field, having moved back to his hometown, and in his most recent picture resembled 2/3 of ZZ Top, and yes, he had to tuck his hair into his shirt while working. But he has a job that cannot be outsourced, and should he decide to change careers, he could still make a decent amount of money working part-time while in school. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2021, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/702 "2021-07-21T23:41:16Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > As I noted (it’s a long thread), there is a vast underground economy which is accessible through cell phones where you can connect for gig work of almost any sort, from tutoring to photography to reselling. Many of the people you mention are paying their bills via those methods. If gigs and similar alternatives are a more enjoyable way to make a living, why weren’t they doing it before the pandemic? Back in 2019, why were the MW workers slaving over a grill in a hot kitchen instead of doing some gig jobs and taking surveys? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=36)