# The Nahployment 'Crisis' **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 30, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117 "2021-04-30T19:07:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/61 "2021-05-02T01:40:58Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Will they? As a UBI proponent the most common anti argument is that people only work because they have to and if they didn’t have to they wouldn’t. I think that’s pretty true and that most people won’t strive for better if they have their basic needs met. This isn’t true. Every UBI study I’ve seen disproves this. Here’s one of the latest from Stockton, CA. > **[Employment Rose Among Those In Universal Basic Income Experiment In Stockton,...](https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/stockton-ubi-experiment-employment-rises/)** > > After receiving $500 per month for two years without rules on how to spend it, 125 people in Stockton paid off debt, got full-time jobs and reported lower rates of anxiety and depression, according to a study released Wednesday. > [@](#): > > Supporters say a guaranteed income can alleviate the stress and anxiety of people living in poverty while giving them the financial security needed to find good jobs and avoid debt. But critics argue free money would eliminate the incentive to work, creating a society dependent on the state. > > Tubbs, who at 26 was elected Stockton’s first Black mayor in 2016 after endorsements from Oprah Winfrey and Barack Obama, wanted to put those claims to the test. Stockton was an ideal place, given its proximity to Silicon Valley and the eagerness of the state’s tech titans to fund the experiment as they grapple with how to prepare for job losses that could come with automation and artificial intelligence. > . . . > When the program started in February 2019, 28% of the people slated to get the free money had full-time jobs. One year later, 40% of those people had full-time jobs. A control group of people who did not get the money saw a 5 percentage point increase in full-time employment over that same time period. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/62 "2021-05-02T01:45:43Z")
Are you trying to imply that people had their basic needs met for $500/month? Because otherwise that has nothing to do with what I said. ---
**Author:** ![ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chockfullofheadygoodness/32/511_2.png) [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/63 "2021-05-02T01:52:18Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > > “Others are scoffing at their bosses’ return-to-office mandates and threatening to quit unless they’re allowed to work wherever and whenever they want. > > I’m a white collar worker and I’m seeing this too. Its not just people at the bottom end of the socioeconomic totem pole who are standing up to corporate abuse. People who have found that by working at home they get extra sleep, have a better work/life balance, save money, lower their carbon footprint, have more time for family or exercise are saying in large numbers that they are going to quit if they are forced to go back to the office. I’m seeing this too in my white collar software job. We’re talking 6 figures for anyone more than 5 years out of college. A candidate that a new project really really wanted turned my company down because they wouldn’t let him telecommute, and a competitor would. One of my friends works at a defense contractor, and the big problem they have there is they just won a big classified contract that requires security clearances, and therefore requires people to work on site. Can’t do classified work remotely for obvious reasons. They can’t find enough existing employees to agree to work on the new project, because they’ve all gotten used to working from home and like it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/64 "2021-05-02T01:59:18Z")
It’s not a free market though. With the tremendous amount of so-called stimulus money there are huge and easily predictable distortions. At some point, inflation is going to be quite rough when the ratio of dollars to goods and services keeps increasing. Hell, the stock and housing market are probably leading indicators of upcoming inflation. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/65 "2021-05-02T02:01:58Z")
Living wage is a nonsense term. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/66 "2021-05-02T02:29:06Z")
Gee, if only they would pay a living wage … ---
**Author:** ![Crankyhillbilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Crankyhillbilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crankyhillbilly)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/67 "2021-05-02T02:40:19Z")
I would be surprised if having engineers clean rest rooms doesn’t have a huge hidden cost in turnover. If you tell an engineer they are going to clean restrooms as part of the job I think you will have to pay substantially more than the competition to get engineers. It may work in a small family type atmosphere but I think it is something that would not go over well most of the time. You don’t have to pay someone full time wages to work two days a week. You are not abusing or taking advantage of them to only work them two days as long as you pay them fairly for that time. If you hire two people to each work 2-3 days instead of one person full time like retail and restaurants do then you are a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/68 "2021-05-02T03:16:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s not a free market though. With the tremendous amount of so-called stimulus money there are huge and easily predictable distortions. At some point, inflation is going to be quite rough when the ratio of dollars to goods and services keeps increasing. Hell, the stock and housing market are probably leading indicators of upcoming inflation. Would stimulus money make a difference in the housing market? People aren’t going to buy new houses due to a $1400 check. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/69 "2021-05-02T05:41:15Z")
I have a need for intermittent part time labor that benefits from experience. I can’t afford enough hours to keep even one person full time BUT I can be rock solid with how and when I schedule the work so I’m easy to plan around and I pay well for the work. I find that good people kinda make room in their schedule for me and they benefit from knowing I’ll be tossing them a very reliable amount per month. Get a similar gig or two on top of that and pretty soon you’re talking a pretty decent living. If we had universal single payer health care it would work out basically perfectly for everyone. Gig economy says “I only want to pay you when I need you but you’re free to refuse the job” which is fine and doable for a lot of people but the goddamned health insurance is like a fucking anchor around everyone’s neck. Medicare for all would freaking fix this huge need gap that everyone has but no, we can’t have that because it upsets the insurance companies. Because that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/70 "2021-05-02T10:13:37Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Will they? As a UBI proponent the most common anti argument is that people only work because they have to and if they didn’t have to they wouldn’t. I think that’s pretty true and that most people won’t strive for better if they have their basic needs met. Most people will do something with their time, even if our current paradigm doesn’t recognize that as work - which is part of the problem, actually, that some work is not see as work/worthy of monetary compensation. Plenty more people will stay home and raise kids/run a household if they don’t have to scramble for work/daycare. Parental involvement in raising kids is seen as a good for society and yet we call full-time stay-at-home parents “unemployed” when in reality it’s an on-call 24/7 job. You might dismissively say sure, but those without kids will stay home and just play video games and watch Netflix all day… while ignoring that there are professional e-sports and people on YouTube making some money from reviewing the bajillion offerings on streaming services. Sure, those are competitive areas, but so are a lot of other things and if someone gets good enough that others want to watch them and pay to do so good on them. People only do _awful scutwork under terrible conditions_ because they have to - with a UBI option employers would be forced to deal differently with people when they’re asking them to do unpleasant jobs, or yes, automate, but automation won’t be such a nightmare if it doesn’t result in desperate, starving, homeless people. UBI would still be disruptive, and the exploiters will howl because they’ll have less power over other people, but it’s not the worst of all possible alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/71 "2021-05-02T10:36:35Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Would stimulus money make a difference in the housing market? People aren’t going to buy new houses due to a $1400 check. Well… maybe in my case. Sort of. In my case the three stimulus checks, a total of $3,200, when straight into my savings. No, it’s not enough to buy a house but it IS a boost towards a downpayment alongside my overtime and hazard pay in 2020. If 2021 is as good financially for me as 2020 I might, for the very first time, purchase some sort of real estate (obviously, a modest property). And the stimulus would be part of that. I doubt the stimulus is making a huge difference in the housing market but it could be having some effect. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/72 "2021-05-02T10:44:52Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Gig economy says “I only want to pay you when I need you but you’re free to refuse the job” which is fine and doable for a lot of people but **the goddamned health insurance** is like a fucking anchor around everyone’s neck. ^ This ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/73 "2021-05-02T12:20:05Z")
> [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](#): > > One of my friends works at a defense contractor, and the big problem they have there is they just won a big classified contract that requires security clearances, and therefore requires people to work on site. As a job hunter, at least I can understand why this makes sense. What burns me are people getting forced back to the office because some senior VP likes to ‘bond’ with the employees by shooting the shit about fantasy football or thinks that a monthly pot luck is key to employee engagement. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/74 "2021-05-02T12:39:09Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > How is this the free market at work when the government pays people to sit at home? Please read the OP and do better than come in here with the same tired conservative talking points which, as explained in the OP, has nothing to do with what is happening. UV, they’re not coming back to these jobs because of UE since, as noted, people are refusing to come back for minimum wage W-2 work _after_ their UE runs out. UE has nothing to do with this phenomenon, other than giving people time to see what their options were. And they found better ways to earn that measly $300/week than by working @ Walmart, so they are making the rational economic decision to do a Johnny Paycheck and say ‘take this job and shove it.’ ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/75 "2021-05-02T12:44:35Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Gig economy says “I only want to pay you when I need you but you’re free to refuse the job” which is fine and doable for a lot of people but the goddamned health insurance is like a fucking anchor around everyone’s neck. True, but in the world of minimum wage jobs, the same issue re: health insurance still exists _unless_ you work for one of the very, very few companies which extend these benefits to low-wage employees. And even then, you have to wait a quarter of a year before you qualify for health insurance, so ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯ ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/76 "2021-05-02T13:31:01Z")
> [@NetTrekker](#): > > of the 4 only 2 were manned (womanned?). I would suggest “staffed”. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/77 "2021-05-02T15:19:07Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > > [@NetTrekker](#): > > > > of the 4 only 2 were manned (womanned?). > > I would suggest “staffed”. - That has a masculine bias. :flees: ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/78 "2021-05-02T15:43:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > At some point, inflation is going to be quite rough when the ratio of dollars to goods and services keeps increasing. Hell, the stock and housing market are probably leading indicators of upcoming inflation. He’s so, so, close guys. The stock market isn’t a leading indicator of inflation, it is purposely being hyperinflated as to drive up financial asset valuations for the benefit of the 1%, a process which started under Obama’s Fed Chairs and was ramped up under the Great Malignancy. But one can’t target inflation like this without eventually having spillover effects, so here we are again with $8/hour jobs not being worth shit. [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51028974566_f4321df23d_b.jpg "2021-03-12\_07-39-01") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/68782016@N08/51028974566/) [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51029262662_644eeec107_b.jpg "2021-03-12\_08-56-07") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/68782016@N08/51029262662/) [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51034977471_294803bfba_b.jpg "2021-03-14\_01-54-37") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/68782016@N08/51034977471/) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/79 "2021-05-02T16:06:07Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > > [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](#): > > > > One of my friends works at a defense contractor, and the big problem they have there is they just won a big classified contract that requires security clearances, and therefore requires people to work on site. > > As a job hunter, at least I can understand why this makes sense. What burns me are people getting forced back to the office because some senior VP likes to ‘bond’ with the employees by shooting the shit about fantasy football or thinks that a monthly pot luck is key to employee engagement. Yeah, or some incompetent middle manager thinks people ‘aren’t working’ unless they can spy on them all day, even though everything is getting done when people work at home. If anything, the extra sleep that comes from not having to commute or prep before work probably helps people be more productive. My company is currently in some kind of decision phase, they sent out a questionnaire about how people feel about working from home vs the office. I hope to god a lot of people picked working from home as a desirable option. If not I may shift jobs, I don’t think I can go back to the office after this. Now that I’ve had a taste of a better life I’m not giving it up. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/80 "2021-05-02T16:29:16Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > My company is currently in some kind of decision phase, they sent out a questionnaire about how people feel about working from home vs the office. I hope to god a lot of people picked working from home as a desirable option. If not I may shift jobs, I don’t think I can go back to the office after this. Now that I’ve had a taste of a better life I’m not giving it up. Would you be willing to take a pay cut to stay working from home? It does save you money in transporation, probably cheaper to eat at home as well. It also saves you the opportunity cost of your time, as well as the aggravation that comes of driving. I hope that those who can work from home keep working from home. It makes traffic a whole lot easier for the rest of us. Before COVID, the interstate would be backed up for miles (fortunately, I drive the other way), and a 20 mile commute usually took at least an hour and a half. When the lockdowns started was the first time I’ve seen the interstate flowing in the mornings. It has certainly increased in volume, but I haven’t seen the same gridlock return yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=5)