# The Nahployment 'Crisis' **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 30, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117 "2021-04-30T19:07:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/101 "2021-05-02T20:55:22Z")
Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/102 "2021-05-02T21:36:49Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > How is this the free market at work when the government pays people to sit at home? Because in this case those people would be sitting at home without any pay. Notice how this horrible policy led to the economy not cratering. As a side effect, clearly people are thinking about not going back to crap, underpaid, jobs. How do you propose a totally free market should handle a pandemic? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/103 "2021-05-02T21:38:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > How do you propose a totally free market should handle a pandemic? - Jack up prices so only the “right” people survive? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/104 "2021-05-02T21:39:55Z")
Yeah, I was actually wondering how much it actually cost for me to get jabbed in the arm. I didn’t pay anything, but that’s not the same as it not costing anything. If the free market were in charge, I wonder if I could have afforded it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/105 "2021-05-02T21:42:58Z")
> [@bump](#): > > In a larger sense, it’s a reflection of there basically being too many people and not enough jobs for the labor market to provide high wages for everyone. That’s part of the reason that economic growth is so important - without growth, we still have population growth, but the pool of potential jobs doesn’t grow, meaning that wages fall, consumer spending falls, etc… > > As for professional workers and the work-from-home stuff, I’m not sure how that’ll play out. I know where I work, there’s a lot of expectation of more generous policies post-pandemic, but nobody knows what form those will take yet. What does that “economic growth” look like? Expansion of already bloated industries of questionable utility like finance, tech, law, consulting, insurance, real estate, etc? More “new economy” jobs as bloggers, influencers, social mediologists, blockchain wranglers? What seems to be happening is that as our workforce becomes more educated, we are needing to create more and more “bullshit” jobs for them to pretend to work on. The labor market is never going to “provide high wages for everyone”. There will always be people working in low-wage jobs as baristas, clerks, waitress, and other low-level service employees. There will also likely be people who will never possess marketable skills. Particularly as we automate more and more low level work. I believe in free markets and capitalism as much as anyone. But in a society where we have people like Jeff Bezos worth $200 billion (around 6 MILLION times the annual salary of one of his factory workers - assuming they all work $15 an hour full time all year…which we can’t assume) and over a $1 trillion in “wealth” has been created from having computers guess random numbers, it feels disingenuous to me to claim that we can’t maintain some minimum standard of living and health care for all our citizens. IMHO, very few jobs from running a McDonalds drive through to being a Goldman Sachs investment banker are so important that we have to threaten people with homelessness and starvation if they don’t get done. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/106 "2021-05-02T21:49:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@UltraVires](#): > > > > How is this the free market at work when the government pays people to sit at home? > > Because in this case those people would be sitting at home without any pay. Notice how this horrible policy led to the economy not cratering. > As a side effect, clearly people are thinking about not going back to crap, underpaid, jobs. > How do you propose a totally free market should handle a pandemic? Yeah, it’s stupid to cry “free market” as if it’s a cure-all. These free marketists seem to overlook that keeping all these businesses open would ultimately spread the disease faster and wider, causing more workers to get sick, ultimately disrupting those same businesses. The right wing “free market” policy only works in conjunction with policies that assume the virus is “not a big deal” or “just a liberal hoax” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/107 "2021-05-02T21:52:38Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > These free marketists seem to overlook that keeping all these businesses open would ultimately spread the disease faster and wider, causing more workers to get sick, ultimately disrupting those same businesses. Yeah. At the beginning of the pandemic the company my daughter works for had to be forced by the state to let people work at home. People in her building got infected, but the top bosses didn’t care. Ironic, since they are in the business of providing infrastructure for people working at home. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/108 "2021-05-02T21:57:03Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Yeah. At the beginning of the pandemic the company my daughter works for had to be forced by the state to let people work at home. People in her building got infected, but the top bosses didn’t care. > Ironic, since they are in the business of providing infrastructure for people working at home. - If upper management has that little faith in their own product, it’s high time they’re replaced. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/109 "2021-05-02T21:57:10Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s not a free market though. With the tremendous amount of so-called stimulus money there are huge and easily predictable distortions. At some point, inflation is going to be quite rough when the ratio of dollars to goods and services keeps increasing. Hell, the stock and housing market are probably leading indicators of upcoming inflation. Around where I live there are reasons for the run up in housing prices not having anything to do with inflation coming. Condos have not gone up much, bigger houses have. We’re getting some benefit from people leaving the city. And since people didn’t want to move out of a house in the middle of the pandemic, that decreased inventory. The market has benefited from tech company stock values, and because savings are way up so more people have money to invest. The low cost brokerages are doing very well. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/110 "2021-05-02T21:58:42Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > If upper management has that little faith in their own product, it’s high time they’re replaced. It was more old fashioned desires to control people than not believing in the product. These were white collar jobs also. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2021, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/111 "2021-05-02T23:28:12Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > few jobs from running a McDonalds drive through to being a Goldman Sachs investment banker are so important that we have to threaten people with homelessness and starvation if they don’t get done. If they are that important, they can be paid based on how important they are. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/112 "2021-05-03T00:12:26Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The bad news this will force businesses to double their investment in setting up automated shops. I can see a time in the not-too-distant future when a McDonald’s is probably staffed by a person or two who just comes in to make sure the computers and kiosks work, and to fix them if they don’t. Maybe there’s a shift manager or security guard on duty to calm down pissed off customers. And the jobs lost in the fast food industry will be offset to some degree by the jobs gained in the industries that design, manufacture, and install automation equipment. Gas stations used to universally employ three or four or five or more people for every shift; now most (except in states that outlaw self-service) employ one per shift. In other words, this type of thing has hit different sectors of the economy before, and we adjust. Obviously the economy would be healthier if more people gained the education and/or training to do things like design automation systems, or write programs that take care of inventory issues in retail stores, or create architectural plans that will make living with both automation and future epidemics easier. Conversations that start with the perils of automation should segue to education and training [insert sub-forum title]. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/113 "2021-05-03T03:15:10Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Yeah, or some incompetent middle manager thinks people ‘aren’t working’ unless they can spy on them all day, even though everything is getting done when people work at home. > > If anything, the extra sleep that comes from not having to commute or prep before work probably helps people be more productive. > > My company is currently in some kind of decision phase, they sent out a questionnaire about how people feel about working from home vs the office. I hope to god a lot of people picked working from home as a desirable option. If not I may shift jobs, I don’t think I can go back to the office after this. Now that I’ve had a taste of a better life I’m not giving it up. It’s trivially easy to spy on workers at home or in the office; anybody who’s worked in a call center knows how true this is. It’s funny, my company just sent out a questionnaire about work preferences and I had the exact opposite reaction to year. There were 3 options; fulltime WFH, fulltime office, and flexible (2-3 days in-office). If I’m not allowed to work in-office by summer I’m quitting and I will not take another job that involves WFH. I hate just about everything about it. It’s exacerbated my anxiety and depression which in turn is causing insomnia. I can’t handle the isolation and I resent having to sacrifice my living space for work. I resent being expected to do computer set up or updates off the clock or buy ethernet cables out of my own pocket. Or supply my own office furniture. And most of all I resent being expected to act like it’s a benefit I should be grateful for. At times if feels like society is trying to ram it down my thought at times. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/114 "2021-05-03T03:35:48Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I resent being expected to do computer set up or updates off the clock They expect you to do that out of hours? That’s f-ed up. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/115 "2021-05-03T03:54:11Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > And the jobs lost in the fast food industry will be offset to some degree by the jobs gained in the industries that design, manufacture, and install automation equipment. > > Gas stations used to universally employ three or four or five or more people for every shift; now most (except in states that outlaw self-service) employ one per shift. In other words, this type of thing has hit different sectors of the economy before, and we adjust. > > Obviously the economy would be healthier if more people gained the education and/or training to do things like design automation systems, or write programs that take care of inventory issues in retail stores, or create architectural plans that will make living with both automation and future epidemics easier. > > Conversations that start with the perils of automation should segue to education and training [insert sub-forum title]. That’s nonsense because the jobs aren’t equivalent. You have a large number of unskilled workers being replaced by a much smaller number of highly skilled professionals and skilled technicians. How many people do you think it takes to design automation software? How many years of education does that require? Or do you buy into this Peter Thiel bullshit that everyone should drop out of college to become startup billionaires like Mark Zuckerberg? What are we going to have in a few years? An entire economy based on social media? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/116 "2021-05-03T03:56:34Z")
that or universal income … ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/117 "2021-05-03T11:08:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t know the details, but apparently my dentist can’t find staffing. Had my appointment cancelled and postponed indefinitely due to understaffing. Chairside jobs in a dental clinic are pretty hazardous now because of COVID. I can see dental hygienists and dentists being reluctant to be right next to someone who’s spraying saliva mist into the air for an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/118 "2021-05-03T11:50:42Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > I don’t know why business owners aren’t up in arms demanding universal health care. If workers and employers didn’t have to worry about health insurance this would be a waaaay different economy and we’d be having a different discussion about workers right now. I’d just like to note, relative to the comments about how government action and support programs “distort” the “free market” — I’m in Europe, where UHC is basically the default (\*), and the current “nahployment” crisis is essentially nonexistent here. I’m sure there’s no connection between these facts, none at all. The longer I live away from the U.S., the more the entanglement between employment and health care looks like absolute gibbering madness. \* For various forms of UHC. The system in France is very different compared to Germany, for example. The outcome of universal coverage (or near) is what matters. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/119 "2021-05-03T12:01:37Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Chairside jobs in a dental clinic are pretty hazardous now because of COVID. I can see dental hygienists and dentists being reluctant to be right next to someone who’s spraying saliva mist into the air for an hour. Yep. I have had to get some dental work done over the past couple years that couldn’t be deferred or the problems would have become worse, so I’ve been to the dentist during the Time of Covid. Fortunately, none of it was an emergency so scheduling delays were bearable but the dentist did have staffing problems that were entirely understandable: pregnant hygienist did not want to be in the office exposed to others during a pandemic, overweight diabetic hygienist at very high risk from covid, etc, etc. And, oh yes, the practice shut down completely while the dentist himself caught covid. Things are picking up now that the staff can get vaccinated, but they’re still being very careful. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/120 "2021-05-03T12:12:09Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Gig/Delivery work is booming. Warehouse openings are booming. Nobody is trying to work in a sweaty kitchen being yelled at by customers for $8 an hour anymore. Good for them. [quote=“Horatius, post:22, topic:941117, full:true”] > [@Oredigger77](#): > > The fast food places in town were advertising $15/ hour before Covid **so I’m not sure what more they could do** since they are already paying more than entry level at the post office (which is having massive staffing problems). This right here is the part that simply boggles my mind. You know what they could do; you mention it in your very next paragraph! PAY MORE. How hard is that? If you can’t get anyone to work at $15, offer $16, then $17. Keep going until you find enough people.[/quote] This (and the rest of the thread, really) remind me of the Baumol effect: > **[Baumol effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease)** > > In economics, the Baumol effect, also known as Baumol's cost disease, is the rise of wages in jobs that have experienced little or no increase in labor productivity in response to rising wages in other jobs that have experienced higher productivity growth. The phenomenon was described by William J. Baumol and William G. Bowen in the 1960s and is an example of cross elasticity of demand. > The rise of wages in jobs without productivity gains derives from the requirement to compete for workers wit... **TL,DR:** If more attractive opportunities arise elsewhere for your low-paid workers, you will have to raise your wages to retain them - even if they are no more productive than they used to be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=7)