# The Nahployment 'Crisis' **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 30, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117 "2021-04-30T19:07:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 63
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1244 "2022-01-11T18:41:11Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > It’s been enough of a problem that several cities have enacted restrictions for on-call scheduling and have requirements to lay out scheduled hours in advance. There are some states considering legislation to extend these protections state-wide. This also includes restrictions on things like ‘clopening’ where a part time (or full time, to be fair) employee may be asked to close out for the day and report first thing to open the store. Back when I worked as a restaurant deliveryman, in 2016, it was _federal_ law (the FLSA I think) that ensured I would be compensated for my shift even if no deliveries were placed (and thus, even if I wasn’t _actually_ working). The critical factor was that I had to be ready to make a delivery within a very short notice, which limited what I could do with my time during the shift. I see no problem with part-time employees opening and closing a store, if they only work a couple days a week or if the store has reduced hours. For example at my company one of our offices was open from 9-11:30 today, and it was opened and closed by two part-time employees who only work 27 hours a week. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1245 "2022-01-11T18:44:15Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I see no problem with part-time employees opening and closing a store, if they only work a couple days a week or if the store has reduced hours. That wasn’t the objection. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1246 "2022-01-11T18:52:17Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > See recent posts about getting the week’s schedule on Saturday or Sunday. Redoing the shift schedule every week sounds insane to me. It’s hard enough finding coverage for one day, why would I (or any manager) want to re-work everyone’s hours every week? Maybe for firefighters it makes sense, but in my experience EMT’s who applied to our company usually get two days on two days off at the fire department… ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1247 "2022-01-11T18:57:19Z")
It’s not on call. The employer schedules part time employees without regard to their availability and if they can’t work those hours they get fewer hours and eventually leave. I had an employer who implemented this under the influence of pimply faced consultants, with the slogan “End Convenience Scheduling”, by which they meant we will not schedule shifts based on the convenience of the employees, but the exact needs of the employer. So instead of working three 8 hour shifts a week, people were assigned five shifts of 4-6 hours, at times when they were supposed to be in school, their kids were home from school, they were at their full time job, whatever. For a while it worked like a charm. Staffing matched the ideal workflow. Lots of long-term benefits eligible employees quit. Then the whole business went to hell. Employees were either the most desperate ones (most marginally qualified) and/or were getting compensated by stealing stuff and/or bitching to customers about the employer. 60 year old business ruined in three years. CEO and his cronies were off to their “next challenge” with their bonuses for the short term bump in profits. What was left of the business has to rebuild with the remaining loyal, long term employees. I was one of the cronies of one of the cronies. But I decided to stick around to help repair the damage. Ended up staying for almost ten years. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1248 "2022-01-11T19:01:04Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Back when I worked as a restaurant deliveryman, in 2016, it was _federal_ law (the FLSA I think) that ensured I would be compensated for my shift even if no deliveries were placed (and thus, even if I wasn’t _actually_ working). The critical factor was that I had to be ready to make a delivery within a very short notice, which limited what I could do with my time during the shift. I looked this up for Mrs Cad and either the law on this is really screwed up or I’m not understanding it. Apparently there are different on-calls and they are handled differently for pay example if you get a call you need to go somewhere vs. you need to be available on-call via phone 24/7 this week so you can’t go anywhere you don’t have service. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1249 "2022-01-11T19:09:50Z")
Just heard a radio ad here in Bozeman–Wal-mart hiring overnight stockers, $21.50 plus benefits to start. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1250 "2022-01-11T19:18:11Z")
Yeah, repeatedly changing shift schedules without asking is not what I meant to imply when I said “part-time”. That just seems like a really bad and unsustainable management model, and as you said, it ruined the business. We do have a problem in my industry where employers ask staff to work extra hours, but it’s a totally different kind of ask. The situation is, if you can’t work the extra hours I have to close the office because we have nobody else. It is _not_ ‘my way or the highway’. The thing about most of _our_ part-time employees is that they _can’t_ work more than X hours a week because they depend on means-tested welfare, and working too many hours disqualifies them. So that’s something I have to work with as a manager. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1251 "2022-01-11T19:24:33Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I volunteered to move up from a senior worker-bee position to the lowest level of management, just so we didn’t get some outside idiot coming in to manage us. Otherwise, I would’ve been happy where I was at. One good thing about my job is the first few levels of management above me are all promoted from within, so they have at least a few years experience of what we actually do here to build on. In fact, the guys in the first two levels above me are people I had a part in training when they were first hired. One was an on-the-job trainee I supervised for his first two years. > [@Ruken](#): > > That’s not necessarily on-call. See recent posts about getting the week’s schedule on Saturday or Sunday. But there are also a lot of employers who expect you to be available if they call you on your day off to cover a shift if someone else calls in sick or something. And it’s not just, “Hey, can you help us out?” kind of calls. It’s “Show up in an hour or you’re fired!” kind of calls, it’s employers flatly ignoring reasons why the employees can’t make it calls, it’s “We’ll have to talk about _your attitude_ on Monday” kind of calls. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1252 "2022-01-11T19:26:49Z")
Not a lawyer, but the critical factor in my case was that I had to hang out around the restaurant. This wasn’t the restaurant’s policy but it was necessary due to the requirement that I be able to pick up a delivery with 5 minute’s notice. I couldn’t be sitting at home watching TV, for example. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1253 "2022-01-11T19:50:18Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > Last week the young lady looked at her schedule for next week and found that she was scheduled for times and days she had blocked off. When she protested she was told that she was going to have to just figure something out because they needed her at work. Ha! Same exact story as a friend of my son’s. Screwed around with his schedule, so he found another job within days. The pizza place is now out of business, and I’m guessing the franchise owner is blaming others for his failure. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1254 "2022-01-11T19:52:51Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Entrepreneurs have a lot of cognitive biases that lead to bad decisions. My coffee shop is different, people will want to work there and give 110%. It’s not just a coffee shop, it’s like… a family. No, it’s a movement. I’ll be friendly with the staff to make up for lower wages. But also sometimes ruthless so they don’t cut into the bottom line. We work hard and play hard, y’know? We’re just a friendly but ruthless cool place to… hey, are you really quitting before you even bought your first uniform? That’s hilarious and spot on. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1255 "2022-01-11T19:53:41Z")
It’s funny BECAUSE it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1256 "2022-01-11T19:59:24Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Yeah. We have something like that too. I really don’t know the details. Oh I’ve been told, but can’t bother with it. It’s odd because as a programmer, I have to be VERY detailed in my work, the other stuff that HR kicks out just gets a “whatever” from me. This is why I would be very bad in a management position. No way I want to deal with that stuff, and the money would not be much more than I currently make. > > They can’t do my job, and I sure as hell don’t want to do theirs. A lot of tech companies have parallel management and technical tracks, so that people who are great at the tech but maybe would not be so great as managers get promoted and get money. The tech people go to the staffs of higher level management. The guy who became executive VP of our division was never a manager before that promotion, but was the guy who could debug microprocessor problems better than anyone. He wasn’t a great manager, alas, but at least not an awful one. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1257 "2022-01-11T20:34:22Z")
It may also be a power trip kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1258 "2022-01-11T20:36:52Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > So yeah- the reason some people do that is because they’re flaming idiots. I would guess that as a MANAGER, he thought that he had to DO SOMETHING, otherwise people would catch on that his position was essentially pointless. I’ve had managers who seem to think their job consists of walking down the hallways peering into offices to see who is working. And yelling at someone if they had the nerve to be in the washroom when he walked by. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1259 "2022-01-11T20:48:58Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > this [law] firm has been scrabbling for employees for well over two years. They’re nice people, the pay is good, the offices are pleasant and in a nice, safe Boston suburb easily commuted to. There just apparently aren’t enough qualified people available right now. > > Not paralegals, not legal secretaries, not even general office help This is what I just cant understand: a good , respectable job–and nobody wants to apply for it? Where did everybody go? Sure, the pandemic made it easy to decide to quit the $7 dollar/hour McJobs, re-think your life, etc. And sure, some professional people retired early to get out of the rat race. So others moved up to take their place, and left unfilled job openings down below in the company. But legal secretaries and paralegals? These aren’t the kind of jobs with lots of pressure to climb the career ladder and expect regular promotions . They don’t become empty positions because somebody moved up in the company hierarchy. And they are the kind of job that attracts intelligent , serious workers who can handle the responsibilities. So what happened to these responsible people over the past 24 months? Yes, some of them probably discovered that they can quit, and live off the spouse’s paycheck, and still enjoy life with less money but more time. But most people still need their salary. And a legal salary is a good enough job that you don’t just blow it off and walk away. .So where is everybody ? I’m specifically asking about jobs in this realm of mid-level office work (paralegals, architectural draftsmen, bank clerks)–some college needed, a serious work ethic needed, the salary is pretty good, the work is steady with regular hours, and the people who do it are stable and dependable. Where did they all go? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1260 "2022-01-11T20:55:00Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Redoing the shift schedule every week sounds insane to me. It’s hard enough finding coverage for one day, why would I (or any manager) want to re-work everyone’s hours every week? Right now my managers are doing that because 40 out of a staff of 100-120 per day (weekends are more heavily staffed) are in covid quarantine and/or isolation, on top of all other illnesses (like the night manager who started vomiting mid-shift yesterday) and/or injuries, emergencies, and other call-offs we get. No matter who they schedule, bunches of people are being yanked off the schedule without warning. Until omicron they were pretty consistently scheduling people two weeks out, though, so it’s an exception in our case. On the other hand, there are stores/companies that jerk people around all the time, basically demanding they keep their schedules open for shift with next to no notice. Which also makes it nigh impossible for a part-timer to have a second job, arrange consistent child care, attend school, etc. You know, all the responsible adult things for raising children and/or trying to better yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1261 "2022-01-11T20:59:59Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I’m specifically asking about jobs in this realm of mid-level office work (paralegals, architectural draftsmen, bank clerks)–some college needed, a serious work ethic needed, the salary is pretty good, the work is steady with regular hours, and the people who do it are stable and dependable. > Where did they all go? 800,000 people (and counting) have died due to this new virus. A lot of people in the age 45 and up cohort, especially those over 55, took early retirement and are not coming back. Being a legal secretary/paralegal isn’t all roses - some of them may have just opted for other work because there’s always a certain turnover. But there may not be a lot of people entering the pipeline. End result: labor shortage. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1262 "2022-01-11T21:04:39Z")
True. At some point younger people will notice these kinds of jobs are available and start training for them, but it may take a few years for the market to catch up. I remember a few years ago you saw ads everywhere for nursing assistant training programs, but not so much now. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117/1263 "2022-01-11T21:40:24Z")
In addition to what’s been mentioned: A huge percentage of the missing workforce is women with school age children. Schools keep opening and closing so a family never knows if someone will have to stay home with the children. That person is usually the mother. For some families that could be a significant financial hit, but they have no choice. Every single mother of young children I know is working much less than before the pandemic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=62) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nahployment-crisis/941117.md?page=64)