# The nakedest, lengthiest bondage scene on basic cable TV (Saving Grace) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 19, 2007, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723 "2007-09-19T08:45:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/41 "2007-09-20T17:59:16Z")
Aw, weak. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/42 "2007-09-20T18:20:09Z")
Not bad, Dex. But a few things. First, what are you wearing? Also, next time, could you order Evil Captor and Lissener to french kiss each other? ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/43 "2007-09-20T18:57:37Z")
[QUOTE=An Gadaí] You guys need the Uk’s Channel 4, the sauciest non-subscription channel on earth. If it’s called art and has tits in it it’ll be on Channel 4. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Canada’s CityTV (once a Toronto-only OTA channel, now replicated across the country) is even racier that Channel 4. And Showcase, a cable network, is even more over the top. Heck, even the relatively staid CTV network (a conventional broadcast network) here showed _The Sopranos_ in the 10pm time slot, edited for length, not content (they left in all the nudity and swearing 😃 ). ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/44 "2007-09-20T19:02:04Z")
[QUOTE=Ferret Herder] It’s not even giving up control. Anyone who’s sane who does bondage has a “safe word” that ends whatever is going on, or at least will be able to simply say “stop” and have it end. [/QUOTE] Well, the watchwords of the BDSM community are “safe, sane and consensual,” but there are lots of scenes where a safe word is impractical. Like, say, whenever a gag is involved\*. Beginners, or partners new to each other, probably should rely on such a mechanism, but it’s not a requirement for “sane” play. - Well, there are other signals that can be used with a gag, such as having the tied up person hold something that they drop when it gets too much for them. Of course, that can lead to the action accidentally grinding (if you’ll pardon the pun) to a halt at a very inopportune moment for the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/45 "2007-09-20T19:05:06Z")
Oops. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/46 "2007-09-21T01:48:10Z")
[QUOTE=Justin\_Bailey] Now who’s being obtuse? I could probably count on one hand the number of TV shows that have taken this tack after ratings have declined. I’d hardly call that common. And the Law and Order episode you’re referring to was actually a man tied up and raped in his office. The rapist used a banana (which did not get any screen time). [/QUOTE] My mistake, it was a Law & Order SVU episode. And it was a woman. No banana was involved. The episode was called “Disappearing Acts” and it aired on October 25, 2002. Although it was brief and not all that revealing compared with “Saving Grace” it was still pretty darned naked for TV (i.e., naked at all – there hasn’t been much nude bondage on TV, consistent with the general lack of nudity on TV. And it was groundbreaking in one respect – the woman was gagged with her own panties, tied in place with her pantyhose – a fairly common element of sexual bondage fantasies not seen before on broadcast TV, or even basic cable TV. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/47 "2007-09-21T02:07:57Z")
[QUOTE=Justin\_Bailey] Now who’s being obtuse? I could probably count on one hand the number of TV shows that have taken this tack after ratings have declined. I’d hardly call that common. [/QUOTE] Well, there’s certainly no reason why Dopers should take me on my word on this. I’ll dig around a little and see if I can come up with some examples. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/48 "2007-09-21T03:30:22Z")
[QUOTE=Lizard] I never feel a really conscious reaction to such scenes on TV, and obviously I’m in no position to comment on my own subconscious. But I know when such scenes do occur I tend to see them as artifice; they destroy the suspension of disbelief, because they seem so contrived and artificial. I really don’t know how common bondage is IRL, but it couldn’t possibly be as common as its portrayals on TV are. And that annoys me on some level. It strikes me as artistic laziness, as if the producers think if they tie some woman up I’m naive enough to be scandalized. Give me a break. [/QUOTE] They are often contrived and artificial. Bondage scenes are just another dramatic device, as easily overused or badly used as any other. Kidnapping the hero’s girlfriend, or the heroine’s boyfriend, or as just aired on “Burn Notice,” the hero’s best friend is an easy way to build suspense. It’s been done so often that there’s developed a sort of shorthand about it. If we see a woman sitting unattended in a chair, her wrists tied together in front of her, a tape gag across her mouth, we are to assume she’s helpless. See Kathy Ireland in Gridlocked and any number of other actresses in similar scenes. Whereas in fact she could easily remove the gag with her hands and then untie her wrists with her teeth. Sometimes the bondage is so badly done the actress must struggle to keep the ropes from falling off during the scene, or clench the gag in her teeth to keep it from falling out. The director expects us to accept the shorthand for “helpless damsel” and go with the story. Unfortunately, if the director is relying on such shorthand a lot, he or she is probably using cliches in place of actual original storytelling. Tends to have just the effect you’re describing. ---
**Author:** ![bbs2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@bbs2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbs2k)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/49 "2007-09-21T03:52:30Z")
How was the replay? Recorded? YouTubed? I’m curious strictly for educational reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/50 "2007-09-22T15:15:25Z")
[QUOTE=Zoggie] Is it? This reminds me of an old Margaret Atwood short story, “Rape Fantasies.” A group of women are discussing their rape fantasies (being taken forcefully in various places by strong attractive men), and another woman gives her take on it–brutally attacking a man who attempts to rape her. [/QUOTE] Yup, that is in fact just the same as a rape fantasy. It’s still a case of wanting to fantasise about urges she can’t normally admit to - the desire to be brutally violent to a man, in this case - but having to make it someone else’s fault in order for the desire to be sanctioned. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/51 "2007-09-22T17:01:39Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] It’s been done so often that there’s developed a sort of shorthand about it. If we see a woman sitting unattended in a chair, her wrists tied together in front of her, a tape gag across her mouth, we are to assume she’s helpless. See Kathy Ireland in Gridlocked and any number of other actresses in similar scenes. Whereas in fact she could easily remove the gag with her hands and then untie her wrists with her teeth. Sometimes the bondage is so badly done the actress must struggle to keep the ropes from falling off during the scene, or clench the gag in her teeth to keep it from falling out. [/QUOTE] Once again, I have to ask, are you serious? Do you really have some problem with an actress _ **NOT** _ being bound correctly (i.e. tight enough to cause pain) in a scene that calls for her to be held captive? Isn’t it more likely this “shorthand” is the director/producer/whoever making sure his star doesn’t get hurt? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/52 "2007-09-22T17:04:16Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] They are often contrived and artificial. Bondage scenes are just another dramatic device, as easily overused or badly used as any other. Kidnapping the hero’s girlfriend, or the heroine’s boyfriend, or as just aired on “Burn Notice,” the hero’s best friend is an easy way to build suspense. It’s been done so often that there’s developed a sort of shorthand about it. If we see a woman sitting unattended in a chair, her wrists tied together in front of her, a tape gag across her mouth, we are to assume she’s helpless. See Kathy Ireland in Gridlocked and any number of other actresses in similar scenes. Whereas in fact she could easily remove the gag with her hands and then untie her wrists with her teeth. Sometimes the bondage is so badly done the actress must struggle to keep the ropes from falling off during the scene, or clench the gag in her teeth to keep it from falling out. The director expects us to accept the shorthand for “helpless damsel” and go with the story. Unfortunately, if the director is relying on such shorthand a lot, he or she is probably using cliches in place of actual original storytelling. Tends to have just the effect you’re describing. [/QUOTE] Um…it’s a movie; not a “how-to” manual. If you want bondage porn, there’s plenty of it out there. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/53 "2007-09-22T17:43:27Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Um…it’s a movie; not a “how-to” manual. If you want bondage porn, there’s plenty of it out there. [/QUOTE] And the OP already has the definitive collection of it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/54 "2007-09-22T17:45:26Z")
[QUOTE=twickster] And the OP already has the definitive collection of it. [/QUOTE] I know! It borders on the unhealthy! I mean, when you start critiquing artistic expression against reality…well…I just think you’re a bit too consumed with the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/55 "2007-09-22T20:07:02Z")
[QUOTE=Justin\_Bailey] Once again, I have to ask, are you serious? Do you really have some problem with an actress _ **NOT** _ being bound correctly (i.e. tight enough to cause pain) in a scene that calls for her to be held captive? Isn’t it more likely this “shorthand” is the director/producer/whoever making sure his star doesn’t get hurt? [/QUOTE] Where does “tight enough to cause pain” come from? It’s not that hard to tie someone up so they can’t escape without actually hurting them. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/56 "2007-09-22T20:15:38Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] I know! It borders on the unhealthy! I mean, when you start critiquing artistic expression against reality…well…I just think you’re a bit too consumed with the subject. [/QUOTE] I dunno…think of your particular interests and how they’re commonly portrayed in TV and film. Don’t you ever notice inconsistencies that other people don’t, but they still drive you nuts? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/57 "2007-09-22T20:34:50Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] I dunno…think of your particular interests and how they’re commonly portrayed in TV and film. Don’t you ever notice inconsistencies that other people don’t, but they still drive you nuts? [/QUOTE] I had a film professor who started out studying herpetology before he switched majors. He said the snake pit scene in _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ always pulled him out of the movie, because he could recognize which snakes weren’t native to North Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/58 "2007-09-22T21:19:10Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] I dunno…think of your particular interests and how they’re commonly portrayed in TV and film. Don’t you ever notice inconsistencies that other people don’t, but they still drive you nuts? [/QUOTE] Chess, in films and in print. If the chessboard is correctly oriented, white square on the right of the back rank, you’re ahead of the game. If the position actually makes sense, whoa!! The latest piece of nonsense I came across was in S M Stirling’s _Draka_ series - twice he refers to chess and both times the moves that are announced bear enough resemblance to chess notation that you figure he’s heard of it, but both times the moves are gibberish: “Knight to Queen’s Pawn Four” or some such. :smack: Even such a Renaissance man as Stephen Fry cocks it up in “The Stars’ Tennis Balls”. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/59 "2007-09-22T21:44:35Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Where does “tight enough to cause pain” come from? It’s not that hard to tie someone up so they can’t escape without actually hurting them. [/QUOTE] So noted, but I imagine it would ridiculously uncomfortable and is completely unneeded to make the film “more real.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723/60 "2007-09-22T22:42:32Z")
[QUOTE=Justin\_Bailey] So noted, but I imagine it would ridiculously uncomfortable and is completely unneeded to make the film “more real.” [/QUOTE] What makes you think it would be ridiculously uncomfortable? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nakedest-lengthiest-bondage-scene-on-basic-cable-tv-saving-grace/419723.md?page=4)