# The narrative on "male white privilege" is complete bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 26, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749 "2017-08-26T18:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/81 "2017-08-27T01:13:02Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > When you fight against white supremacy and misogyny with your white male friends and colleagues, what messaging do you use? That white supremacists are in error and immoral because there is no such thing as any “superior race”? That there is no such thing as one white race? Because there truly isn’t, at least not historically. The conception of the white race only came about due to pretty much socially forced assimilation of Southern and Eastern Europeans. These peoples had their own distinct cultural identities which were not racial, but regional, in nature; However due to social pressure to assimilate, they were basically shunned into losing that sense of culture. As a result a conception of a bland generic “white race” developed, although there never was a universal concept of such previously. During the founding of this country, only Saxons made up the “white race”; Others were undesirable. With each successive wave of immigrants, each lost their separate identity in a bid to be accepted by mainstream culture. “White Culture” as such, which white supremacists attempt to uphold, doesn’t truly exist. If anything, it is simply a construction made to take away the individuality of immigrant cultures. Black Culture developed generally due to the shared harsh treatment of people of African and Caribbean descent, and by a similar (though more ugly) form of assimilation through slavery. But even then, there are differences. As far as misogyny, I hold that while men and women are physically (and to degrees, emotionally) different and each have a unique set of circumstances due to their different physiology, neither is superior to the other; each’s unique strength and weakness complements the other; and as such there is no reason (logically or morally) to denigrate, or mistreat, a member of the opposite sex. There is no logical basis for misogyny. There is also no logical basis for viewing men and women as “the same” because we are not. But not being the same does not mean either is superior or inferior. Simply different. Different is good. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/82 "2017-08-27T01:15:48Z")
As someone who has been on both sides of the male/female coin, it’s hard to articulate just the sheer invisibility of it from the male side and the stark difference once you pass for female. There are a few perks, yes, when you’re pretty sometimes people get a little TOO nice to you and sometimes even dote on you or go out of their way to help you or take responsibility for things that are their fault to spare you. That’s nice and sweet, if awkward. But there’s a lot of dark side. For one, my credibility with technology has gone way, way down. It’s actually **notable** to go to a tech store for cables or components or something and not get talked down to. People just assume I need things explained to me when I’m a PhD student in a computer field. It was not this way before, when I was presenting male people assumed I had basic competency unless I asked. And… well, I have to think twice about walking alone at night now. Catcalls are annoying but not too harmful, but I’ve gotten groped, hit on as a captive audience on a bus or alone at a bus stop, and even threatened after transitioning. It’s really, really scary especially since I’m a lot weaker now and could easily be overpowered. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/83 "2017-08-27T03:13:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **So you don’t believe women are more likely to be groped or raped than men?** That’s all I’m asking. If you agree that they are, then you believe in privilege. That’s not the only forms of privilege – there are privileges that women benefit from that men don’t as well. There are probably even privileges that black people benefit from in some far less common circumstances that white people don’t. > > You keep sidestepping my questions – why not just answer them? Again: Do you disagree that black people are more likely to be assumed to be thieves by a shop employee? Or that they’re more likely to be pulled over for no real reason? Do you disagree that women are more likely to be groped on crowded public transportation, or raped on first dates? > > These are not hard questions. Yes, they are. So what? Men are victims of violent crime more often than women, overall. Men are much more likely to get beat up or murdered than women. Would you rather get groped, or punched with possible brain damage resulting? Raped, or killed? And groping of men is not reported in the first place because men do not care about it as much, and nobody else cares at all when it happens to a man. Men would be laughed out of the room for complaining about a lot of things feminists complain about, such as minor sexual assaults or verbal sexual harassment. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/84 "2017-08-27T03:14:09Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > To address the OP: I’m still trying to figure out if there’s a chance your posts are completely satirical. Because that’s the only way they make sense to me. I don’t think he’s a satirist, but it’s possible that someone writing for The Onion knows him personally: “[Man Going To Trust Society’s Determination That He Deserves His Privilege](http://www.theonion.com/article/man-going-to-trust-societys-determination-that-he--37486).” ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/85 "2017-08-27T03:16:24Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Understand, some of us have been having this conversation with him dor nearly TWENTY YEARS. Grrrrr/Shakes has learned a ton. Shagnasty? The conversation has stalled here. It has taken longer than we thought. Then again, I might have a point or at least a partial one. I am not a dumb person and I have my own experiences. Consider that there just might be some middle ground. The last thing I want is to oppress anyone. I just want to hang out with my daughters and travel when I am not working but people keep implying I am the oppressor when I never did any such thing. The main “benefit” I get from being a white male is paying for other people’s stuff with no expectation of anything in return. There is also the possibility that I will be expected to give my own life to save someone else and possibly die in very painful way in the event of a true emergency. I would gladly do that by instinct but I have never heard of an equivalent social contract in my own favor. It all looks pretty one-sided when you look at it from the outside. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/86 "2017-08-27T03:24:32Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The last thing I want is to oppress anyone. Having privilege does not mean you are an oppressor. You are still either misrepresenting or fundamentally misunderstanding the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/87 "2017-08-27T03:38:39Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Having privilege does not mean you are an oppressor. You are still either misrepresenting or fundamentally misunderstanding the concept. That is the problem we keep running into. Everyone is privileged in some situations and no one is in all of them. Therefore, it doesn’t mean anything other than the fact that attractive 25 year old female pharma reps get better treatment than a high school dropout with neck tattoos. That is so obvious that there doesn’t need to be a term for it. I like being a tall (that part does matter) white male just fine. I think I would do equally well being a white female or an Asian. I am already a little bit Jewish by heritage and would be happy to go all the way with that. I can’t think of any particular group that I wouldn’t want to be a part of if I needed to except for ISIS. I just look at people as individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/88 "2017-08-27T03:47:14Z")
I guess you didn’t get laid in Colorado, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/89 "2017-08-27T03:55:55Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > I guess you didn’t get laid in Colorado, huh? I had a great time in Colorado! I got to see a lot of people I haven’t seen in 20+ years just by coincidence. No, I didn’t get laid but thanks for asking. It was more of a family trip that focused on kids and relaxation. Maybe later this week. I have a few promising matches I am working on. I am more about experiences though so I will have to see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/90 "2017-08-27T04:00:02Z")
This is so much to the point. Good job! > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As I understand the word privilege, pretty much everyone benefits from some sort of privilege. Healthy and mobile people benefit from “able” privilege – they don’t experience all the little tiny ways that disabled or mobility-impaired people are mistreated by others and by society in general every day. “Normal”-height people benefit from normal-height privilege – they don’t have to deal with a world that isn’t designed for unusually short or tall people, or a society and people that treat them just a little bit differently (and sometimes negatively) due to their height. And so on. These might be pretty damn minor forms of privilege, but they exist in some circumstances for some individuals. > > Further – benefiting from privilege doesn’t mean you have an easy life. Most people with shitty lives benefit from some sort of privilege. I look at it like difficulty settings in a video game (hat tip to John Scalzi) – rolling the dice and getting “white” and “male” is an easier difficulty setting, in general, than rolling the dice and getting “black” and “female”, but there are lots of other characteristics that go into how one’s life develops. A brilliant, highly skilled, highly nurtured, and very hard-working black woman is likely to have a higher quality of life in general than a dumb, uneducated white man who was abandoned as a child and raised in an abusive environment. But that black woman would probably have experienced fewer challenges and had an easier time of success were she a white man with the same skills and background, and that dumb white man would have an even tougher time in getting ahead in life were he born black and female. These differences and difficulties aren’t insurmountable, but they aren’t trivial either, and have significant effects on society. > > In other words, privilege is just another way to state that there are tons of little tiny obstacles in life, coming from other people or society in general, that various categories of people generally face each day that other categories do not. I probably will never be looked at askance for shopping in a nice store, but others don’t have that privilege. I would probably never be pulled over just for driving a nice car, but some others don’t have that privilege. There are a million such little tiny things that, small as they are individually, can still add up to have pretty significant effects on how one’s life goes, and how easy or hard it is for them to be successful and have a good quality of life. > > There’s nothing wrong with being the beneficiary of privilege by itself. I think good people should recognize that they might benefit from various privileges due to categories like race and gender – this is an indictment on an unjust society, not on these individuals. If we all recognize it, then we can work to dismantle these remaining pieces of injustice in our society. But if we ignore it, or fight against the very concept, then such unjust aspects of our society will endure or even be strengthened. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/91 "2017-08-27T04:00:38Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I had a great time in Colorado! I got to see a lot of people I haven’t seen in 20+ years just by coincidence. No, I didn’t get laid but thanks for asking. It was more of a family trip that focused on kids and relaxation. Maybe later this week. I have a few promising matches I am working on. I am more about experiences though so I will have to see what happens. Your continuing dissatisfaction w/ what you believe you’re entitled to is only going to grow when you realize you can’t win the ‘there’s no white male privilege’ argument either. Not in the real world, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/92 "2017-08-27T04:03:06Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > That may be the result but it’s not the intention. Pointing out “straight white male privilege” is not intended to demonize anyone, it’s meant to point out that this is the way it should work for everybody; everybody should be able to go through life without the burdens of race or sex or religion or whatever. And, as a group, straight white males are out in front in that regard. There’s no need to take any of that away from them. the point is to remember to try and find a way so that everyone has that same privilege. It’s about trying to lift up others not pull down you. > > mc It would be better to frame it as “non-white disadvantage” rather than “white privilege.” It turns it into a “pro” issue rather than an “anti” issue. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/93 "2017-08-27T04:10:12Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > Your continuing dissatisfaction w/ what you believe you’re entitled to is only going to grow when you realize you can’t win the ‘there’s no white male privilege’ argument either. Not in the real world, anyway. Well, let me take you out sometime. I will make sure you have the night of your life - no strings attached. Sometimes you just have to have fun and not worry about overarching social issues. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/94 "2017-08-27T04:17:06Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > It has taken longer than we thought. Then again, I might have a point or at least a partial one. I am not a dumb person and I have my own experiences. Consider that there just might be some middle ground. The last thing I want is to oppress anyone. I just want to hang out with my daughters and travel when I am not working but people keep implying I am the oppressor when I never did any such thing. The main “benefit” I get from being a white male is paying for other people’s stuff with no expectation of anything in return. There is also the possibility that I will be expected to give my own life to save someone else and possibly die in very painful way in the event of a true emergency. I would gladly do that by instinct but I have never heard of an equivalent social contract in my own favor. It all looks pretty one-sided when you look at it from the outside. You’re not an oppressor. Just consider the possibility that you may, without realizing it, benefit in many different and small but significant ways each day due to your race and gender. Is that really so impossible to consider? ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/95 "2017-08-27T04:17:12Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Well, let me take you out sometime. I will make sure you have the night of your life - no strings attached. Sometimes you just have to have fun and not worry about overarching social issues. No. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/96 "2017-08-27T05:05:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re not an oppressor. Just consider the possibility that you may, without realizing it, benefit in many different and small but significant ways each day due to your race and gender. Is that really so impossible to consider? I don’t want to be dense. I can walk into almost any place in the U.S. with clipboard with no questions asked. I can also call the executive offices of almost any company and actually get one of them on the phone but that is just me. Most people can’t. I have an ongoing dispute with Lowes about my flooring and you better bet your ass that I have been working with their Chief Operating Officer over the last three months to fire those those responsible and get the job done right (it is a case of blatant consumer and contract fraud that could end up in court). I probably couldn’t do that if I was an unknown person but I don’t think that has much to do with me being white. It is more about help from legal savvy friends including one from this board that I appreciate. The thing is, I am a senior management consultant to mega-corps and know how to navigate everyone and everything. It has little to do with me being white. I work with lots of female coworkers as well especially on the project management side and they are my bosses in some roles. I am working on a project now with a black female project manager from Memphis and I am drowned in Indians with varying levels of competence. My point is that competence is usually recognized and has little to do with sex, race or anything else. I really don’t think that people are as blatantly biased as other people seem to. Almost anyone that tries hard and does a good job can achieve whatever they want. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/97 "2017-08-27T05:54:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jesus H. Christ, dude. Do you know who you sound like? “Some of them are good”? “Most are not good”? > > You are in a hole and need to stop digging. I think you misinterpreted. He was talking about “good” in the context of being good at successfully shoplifting. Some of the shoplifters were good, meaning that they did not get caught, whereas most were not good: they got caught and went to jail. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/98 "2017-08-27T10:55:05Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I don’t want to be dense. I can walk into almost any place in the U.S. with clipboard with no questions asked. I can also call the executive offices of almost any company and actually get one of them on the phone but that is just me. Most people can’t. I have an ongoing dispute with Lowes about my flooring and you better bet your ass that I have been working with their Chief Operating Officer over the last three months to fire those those responsible and get the job done right (it is a case of blatant consumer and contract fraud that could end up in court). I probably couldn’t do that if I was an unknown person but I don’t think that has much to do with me being white. It is more about help from legal savvy friends including one from this board that I appreciate. > > The thing is, I am a senior management consultant to mega-corps and know how to navigate everyone and everything. It has little to do with me being white. I work with lots of female coworkers as well especially on the project management side and they are my bosses in some roles. I am working on a project now with a black female project manager from Memphis and I am drowned in Indians with varying levels of competence. > > My point is that competence is usually recognized and has little to do with sex, race or anything else. I really don’t think that people are as blatantly biased as other people seem to. Almost anyone that tries hard and does a good job can achieve whatever they want. I think you’re still succumbing to the belief that your personal experience is the most important thing here (or even that it’s important at all). Just please try to consider that your personal experience really tells you nothing at all about how day to day life is for black people, women, or other groups. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/99 "2017-08-27T11:46:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think you’re still succumbing to the belief that your personal experience is the most important thing here (or even that it’s important at all). > > Just please try to consider that your personal experience really tells you nothing at all about how day to day life is for black people, women, or other groups. I read some of these threads, but tend not to post. It’s yelling at the ocean. This thread reminds me of the old line from Dean Martin:\*\* “It’s Frank Sinatra’s world, we just live in it.”\*\* As a white middle aged male in the U.S., it is self evident that it’s a white Guy’s world and folks of other stripe just live in it. There has been wonderful progress to evolve our culture, but all in reaction to this truth. We started with a white man’s power base and all changes to human rights have been in relation to that. Making up numbers to illustrate relative proportions, back when “America Was Great Again” the White Male View represented “over 90%” of the mainstream (not a real number, simply indicating “the vast majority”). Now, it may represent, oh, 60% of the mainstream messaging. A huge shift that is scary to folks who want to preserve the way things were, but still a large majority that the others groups want to diversify further. All IMHO, but it helps me process folks like you **Shagnasty** - you see how much has changed and want to declare Mission Accomplished. Others put this into a longer, broader view that you have made it clear you really can’t see. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/100 "2017-08-27T13:57:15Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The main “benefit” I get from being a white male is paying for other people’s stuff with no expectation of anything in return. I don’t think that’s because you’re a white male: > [@Shagnasty](#): > > Well, let me take you out sometime. I will make sure you have the night of your life - no strings attached. Sometimes you just have to have fun and not worry about overarching social issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749.md?page=6)