# The narrative on "male white privilege" is complete bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 26, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749 "2017-08-26T18:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/141 "2017-08-30T21:57:35Z")
White male privilege, as I understand the term, isn’t so much about policies of explicit discrimination in the workplace or elsewhere, since such practices have been largely prohibited. (Granted, I’m not asserting that it doesn’t still happen on an informal level.) At this point, I think WMP is more about what I might call the “savings account of experience and education”. As a white male from way back, I enjoyed certain definite advantages growing up that would not have been available to a disadvantaged person. My upbringing in an upper middle class environment by well-read university graduate parents, was reflected in the schools I attended and the universities I went to later. My public high school was pretty much in a position to feed its honors graduates into the UC system. It would be foolish for me to deny that my background has opened doors for me. In my case, because of my parents’ background, I don’t think gender would have mattered, but I know anecdotally it was once quite common for daughters to be encouraged to enter “typically female” professions, which either required no college degree or were poorly renumerated. It’s as if there’s a whole deck of fifty-two cards out there, and the magician says to pick one, any card, but 49 of them are stuck to the conjuror’s hand. Long story short, the environment you grow up in does have an impact on the opportunities that come your way later. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/142 "2017-08-30T23:54:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > There are plenty of poor white people. Which I believe is one of the main reasons Trump got elected. Poor and working whites don’t feel the “male white privilege”. I don’t know if it’s just poor and working class whites who are the backbone of Trump supporters and I wonder if there isn’t a relationship between a backlash against the liberal views on minorities and the support for Trump. My BIL is an engineer, so hardly working class or poor, and he feels that white males are the now the class facing the most discrimination in America. Seriously. It got to the point that our world view points were so different that a conversation was impossible. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/143 "2017-08-31T00:58:44Z")
I agree the myth of white privilege is bs. I’ve never had anything handed to me because I’m white. The rich and upper classes are primarily white. But they are a small segment of the population. The vast majority of the working class are busting our ass at jobs we dislike and living paycheck to paycheck. It doesn’t matter what race you are. The tax burdon can be overwhelming for working class people. Starting with income tax and then property & sales tax. There’s no race involved with working class people. Watching our health insurance premiums skyrocket and taxes go up. We’re all in the same sinking boat. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/144 "2017-08-31T01:21:25Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > As a white male myself, the reason why I’m blind to white male privilege is that it’s generally the absence of hassles and problems. You don’t notice that you’re not getting hassled by mall security, you don’t notice that you’re not being groped on the subway. > > For example, I went to go pick up my sister from a subway stop a few years ago. I see her coming out onto the sidewalk in Brooklyn, so I honk my horn. I beep it again, and she doesn’t turn. Finally, I opened the window and yelled her name. She finally turned and saw me. When she got into the car, I asked, didn’t you hear the horn? She responded that she doesn’t turn for people honking at her, because it happens all the time by creeps in cars, so she just ignores it now. I don’t do that, and I never noticed the lack of horns beeping at me to get me to look at the creep in the car. I was totally blind to that very minor form of male privilege. > > That’s a minor example, but I think it’s a good illustration of how you can be completely blind to all the ways that being white and male just makes going through your day easier. > > So, ask your African friends and see if their experience in shopping malls is different that yours. Ask your female friends if they see subtle harassment that they just ignore, whether they get groped on subway trains, etc. > > Your (the OP) example of getting groped by a woman or a gay man is interesting, but not apt. Sure, it happened to you a couple of times, but subways have to post signs to remind people that groping is awful, so don’t do it, and they are not about men being groped. Also, if you’re a normally sized man, unless the woman who groped you was a muscle builder or something, you wouldn’t feel the same powerlessness that a woman may feel, since you could likely protect yourself much better than she could. > > You keep talking about individual people, but that’s irrelevant. Individuals have advantages and disadvantages, of course, and no one disputes that. Your daughters have advantages. A middle class black person living in suburbia has a much better shot than an ultra-poor white person living in an orphanage. So what? > > My main point is that you don’t see the privilege because it’s the lack of daily hassles and problems that you experience. QFT. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/145 "2017-08-31T01:34:29Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’ve never had anything handed to me because I’m white. After all this discussion, the fact that you can still say something like this shows that you’re not actually listening when people try to tell you what white privilege is. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/146 "2017-08-31T02:49:21Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’ve never had anything handed to me because I’m white. It’s not a privilege where you’re given anything, it’s a privilege where nothing additional is taken away. Every struggle and frustration you experience is likewise experienced by people who are neither white nor male… _and they have additional burdens on top of that._ Yes, you’re carrying a 100 pounds of crap on your back you can’t set down. And the person next to you who isn’t white is carrying 150 pounds of crap on his back. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/147 "2017-08-31T18:59:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Poor white person uses non-standard English. His accent is described as “charming” and “colorful”. > > Poor black person uses non-standard English. His accent is described as “ghetto” and “stupid”. What in the world? A poor white person using non-standard English is absolutely not described as “charming” nor “colorful”. He is called hillbilly, redneck, or white trash. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/148 "2017-08-31T22:36:48Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Poor white person uses non-standard English. His accent is described as “charming” and “colorful”. I agree with everything except this. Historically, whites using non-standard English dialects or accents have been disparaged by the mainstream culture, including most popular media outlets. However, that may be in the process of flipping, not least because of the stranglehold on the national legislature by Southern and rural states, and a billionaire President who hopes to pass himself off as a prole by sounding stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/149 "2017-08-31T23:30:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > After all this discussion, the fact that you can still say something like this shows that you’re not actually listening when people try to tell you what white privilege is. Oh, I think he’s listening; he’s just rejecting your definition and substituting his own. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/150 "2017-08-31T23:39:28Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I think I would do equally well being a white female or an Asian. Seems to be in contradiction to your earlier statement that all relationships are context-dependent. You can’t possibly know that a teacher, mentor, boss, hiring manager (not even to say ALL of them) would have treated you the same in your own past had you been female or Asian. How would those relationships have all had the same context if your skin or gender were different? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/151 "2017-08-31T23:58:42Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Oh, I think he’s listening; he’s just rejecting your definition and substituting his own. That’s pretty much the definition of a straw man. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/152 "2017-08-31T23:59:15Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I have been punched, kicked, slapped, groped and verbally abused by so many women over the years that I have lost count. The reason they do it is because they know I can’t fight back because I will be the one that gets in trouble for it. None of this is in any way a reflection of anything but your, um, interesting life. > [@MandaJo](#): > > Just to be really clear: you think that under representation of women in positions of leaderahip is because dramatically fewer women are smart/driven/talented enough to perform at that level? > > Do you feel the same way about under representation of African Americans? You know the answer to this. You also know that you will **not** get a good-faith answer. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > I personally don’t care about the underrepresented of any group at all.\*\* Either you can do do a certain job or you can’t. \*\*This is not a charity. I already have literal Africans that do just great so I don’t want to hear nay excuses. I grew up as a poor boy in rural Louisiana so either do it or don’t. So if I’m reading you right, you attribute this under-representation to _inherent_ deficits/inabilities in the under-represented group? (my bold) > [@anomalous1](#): > > If every group of people would do what they are supposed to do in life, work, save, be respectful, try to further their life and better themselves and obey the laws, problem solved. Some groups follow these courses more than others, the ones that don’t, get left behind and scapegoat a group that does better than them. > > On the surface, seemingly valid, once you examine those phrases, they are fallacious. Same with the white privilege argument. **Stop promoting division by stating one group is better off than another.** If you believe in white privilege, you are part of the problem, not the solution. (My bold) But aren’t you guilty of doing exactly this? According to you, the over-representation of white men being discussed is basically because white men are fundamentally more able to succeed than other groups of people. > [@MandaJo](#): > > I am so confused. You said before there were more men “at the extremes”, and that that was why more men are CEOs etc. That seems to imply that you believe that while there may be some women who are as talented as the most talented men, it is less likely for a woman to have such talent. > > Furthermore, if you don’t accept excuses, why are so many more black people poor and otherwise disadvantaged? If each individual’s outcome is the result of personal ability and choices, why do so few black people make choices that will lift them out of poverty? Because they are fundamentally inferior human beings (according to those who deny WMP). > [@aceplace57](#): > > I agree the myth of white privilege is bs. > > I’ve never had anything handed to me because I’m white. > > The rich and upper classes are primarily white. But they are a small segment of the population. The vast majority of the working class are busting our ass at jobs we dislike and living paycheck to paycheck. It doesn’t matter what race you are. > > The tax burdon can be overwhelming for working class people. Starting with income tax and then property & sales tax. > > There’s no race involved with working class people. Watching our health insurance premiums skyrocket and taxes go up. We’re all in the same sinking boat. The stupi, I mean the misunderstanding is strong in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/153 "2017-09-01T00:04:13Z")
I would actually respect someone denying WMP more if they were just fucking honest about what is obvious to all of us. The reason(s) you give supporting your beliefs basically boil down to 2 facets: 1) WMP is contradicted by the fact that poor, unsuccessful white men exist. And 2) what is described as “WMP” is actually just a product of inherent superiority from white men. I just wish one-single-person had the fucking balls to own their beliefs. Glibness and obfuscation is about as much as we can hope for. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/154 "2017-09-01T00:12:38Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I would actually respect someone denying WMP more if they were just fucking honest about what is obvious to all of us. The reason(s) you give supporting your beliefs basically boil down to 2 facets: 1) WMP is contradicted by the fact that poor, unsuccessful white men exist. And 2) what is described as “WMP” is actually just a product of inherent superiority from white men. I just wish one-single-person had the fucking balls to own their beliefs. Glibness and obfuscation is about as much as we can hope for. 1. I know many poor, white men and I think they are pitiful. 2. What if you are a white male that really is superior to everyone else? What do you say then? Just kidding. I am not sure exactly what you mean. I am not shy about my sometimes controversial beliefs here or elsewhere but I don’t quite understand what you are asking. I don’t believe all people are perfectly equal but I don’t believe that being a white male is an inherent advantage in most situations. It can be a useful trait but so can lost of other characteristics. I don’t even think it is the most advantaged group in general anymore. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/155 "2017-09-01T00:16:08Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I don’t even think it is the most advantaged group in general anymore. Then why are so many of the most powerful, prestigious, influential, etc. groups and occupations utterly dominated by white men? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/156 "2017-09-01T00:19:55Z")
The whole concept doesn’t make sense. People keep saying that it isn’t about advantages for yourself - it is about lack of disadvantages. That is about one of the dumbest ways to describe a concept that I have ever heard. That isn’t a “privilege”. It means that black people are sometimes DISADVANTAGED when dealing with the police in certain areas and Muslims may get extra scrutiny at airports. I can easily believe that is true but that has nothing to do with white males. It is a separate problem that needs a different term. The Left is incredibly talented at picking the least descriptive and most inflammatory terms for whatever bullshit terms they decide to come up with in any given thought cycle. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/157 "2017-09-01T00:26:55Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The whole concept doesn’t make sense. People keep saying that it isn’t about advantages for yourself - it is about lack of disadvantages. That is about one of the dumbest ways to describe a concept that I have ever heard. That isn’t a “privilege”. It means that black people are sometimes DISADVANTAGED when dealing with the police in certain areas and Muslims may get extra scrutiny at airports. I can easily believe that is true but that has nothing to do with white males. It is a separate problem that needs a different term. The Left is incredibly talented at picking the least descriptive and most inflammatory terms for whatever bullshit terms they decide to come up with in any given thought cycle. Call it what you want – if you recognize that white people lack a whole lot of the disadvantages of many other groups in various circumstances, then you recognize the existence of white privilege, even if you don’t like the name. But you didn’t answer my question. Why are so many of the most powerful, prestigious, influential, etc. groups and occupations utterly dominated by white men? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/158 "2017-09-01T00:53:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But you didn’t answer my question. Why are so many of the most powerful, prestigious, influential, etc. groups and occupations utterly dominated by white men? There are lots of reasons. There are very real sex differences in priorities. More men than women want to be providers for their family and more men than women are willing to sacrifice their personal life to achieve that. The vast majority of innovators like Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos and the founders of Google are men but there is nothing stopping a woman from doing the same thing. They just usually choose not to. Still that type of achievement doesn’t apply to the vast majority of people - men or women. It is like asking why the entire starting line of the New England Patriots are men. They are just a few extreme outliers and that doesn’t apply to anyone else except them. Men have a broader distribution of almost all traits on both the very high and low end. A lot of it is just age as well. People generally can’t become a corporate CP before 40 and Chief Officers are generally in their 50’s at least. I consult for mega-corps that everyone has heard of. There are women in power positions all over the place and at every level. They have the same, and sometimes better, opportunities than the men. My current big-boss has an uber-boss that is a woman. My ex-wife is a corporate VP. Hillary Clinton only needed a better campaign strategy to become the President of the most powerful nation on Earth. She was a weak candidate and still almost won. Contrary to popular believe, there is no conversion chart to reduce women’s pay for equal positions. That 77 cents on the dollar bullshit is beyond Snopes worthy and going into the realm of a conspiracy theory. It should be disputed by anyone on this board any time anyone repeats it because it is flat-out false. Marissa Mayer got paid more in a single year than I will ever make in my life to help run Yahoo! more into the ground. She got cut but so would any male CEO that was incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/159 "2017-09-01T00:57:45Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > There are lots of reasons. There are very real sex differences in priorities. More men than women want to be providers for their family and more men than women are willing to sacrifice their personal life to achieve that. The vast majority of innovators like Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos and the founders of Google are men but there is nothing stopping a woman from doing the same thing. They just usually choose not to. > > Still that type of achievement doesn’t apply to the vast majority of people - men or women. It is like asking why the entire starting line of the New England Patriots are men. They are just a few extreme outliers and that doesn’t apply to anyone else except them. Men have a broader distribution of almost all traits on both the very high and low end. > > A lot of it is just age as well. People generally can’t become a corporate CP before 40 and Chief Officers are generally in their 50’s at least. I consult for mega-corps that everyone has heard of. There are women in power positions all over the place and at every level. They have the same, and sometimes better, opportunities than the men. My current big-boss has an uber-boss that is a woman. My ex-wife is a corporate VP. Hillary Clinton only needed a better campaign strategy to become the President of the most powerful nation on Earth. She was a weak candidate and still almost won. > > Contrary to popular believe, there is no conversion chart to reduce women’s pay for equal positions. That 77 cents on the dollar bullshit is beyond Snopes worthy and going into the realm of a conspiracy theory. It should be disputed by anyone on this board any time anyone repeats it because it is flat-out false. Marissa Mayer got paid more in a single year than I will ever make in my life to help run Yahoo! more into the ground. She got cut but so would any male CEO that was incompetent. This only addresses gender, and even some of the factors you mention for women may be related to privilege. Why are the ranks of the most prestigious dominated by people who are white, as well as male? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749/160 "2017-09-01T01:21:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This only addresses gender, and even some of the factors you mention for women may be related to privilege. Why are the ranks of the most prestigious dominated by people who are white, as well as male? It takes time for results to show up and corporate executives are generally late middle-aged. You aren’t going to see the full effects of equality movements for several decades after they have already been won. Still, I don’t think talking about corporate executives is something to focus on. Have you ever worked with them? Yes, they make a lot of money in general but the workload is brutal, long and job security is tenuous at best. Those are overrated positions in my opinion. I don’t know why any reasonable person would want one no matter how much it pays. Women now make up the majority of medical school and law school grads. Those are also prestigious jobs that can be brutal but have a more human based focus. I don’t really see the difference. I can tell you that there is no block in major companies for women and minorities to go to the highest levels and it is often explicitly encouraged. They usually just don’t want to because they have sense. That type of lifestyle usually means that you can’t have kids or a family life but you can have cash that you don’t have time to spend and all the work you could ever imagine even on vacation because there is no such thing anymore. I certainly don’t consider that a “privilege” of any sort. It is more like selling yourself into slavery just because you love work and punishment. White men seem to excel at that negative trait. Other groups seem to know better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-narrative-on-male-white-privilege-is-complete-bullshit/794749.md?page=9)