# The Natsarim **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2012, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594 "2012-11-20T07:10:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/121 "2018-06-16T14:53:02Z")
> [@NightRider\_1](#): > > נצר I > > The root verb נצר (nasar I) means to watch, guard or keep. BDB Theological Dictionary divides the applications of this verb into five categories: > > ``` > To watch, guard or keep, for instance a vineyard (Job 27:18, Isaiah 27:3) or a fig tree (Proverbs 27:18), or men (Job 7:20). From this usage stems the word נצרים (nasarim), which means watchmen (Jeremiah 31:6) or perhaps besiegers (Jeremiah 4:16; see below). None of the sources used reckons this word as a (plural) noun, and BDB Theological Dictionary deems it a passive participle. Our verb is also used in an ethical sense: guarding one's mouth (Proverbs 13:3) or tongue (Psalm 34:13), one's way (Proverbs 16:17), and one's heart (Proverbs 4:23). > To preserve or guard from dangers (Deuteronomy 32:10, Psalm 25:21, Isaiah 26:3). From this usage stems the adjective נציר (nsyr), meaning the preserved (Isaiah 49:6 only). > To guard with fidelity, to keep or observe: loving-kindness (Exodus 34:7), a covenant (Deuteronomy 33:9), God's commandments (Psalm 78:7), parental commandments (Proverbs 6:20) and wisdom and discretion (Proverbs 3:21). > To keep (guard) secrets: secret things (Isaiah 48:6), secret places (Isaiah 65:4), or wily intentions of the heart (Proverbs 7:10) > To keep closed; blockaded or besieged (Isaiah 1:8, Jeremiah 4:16, Ezekiel 6:12) > > ``` > > נצר II > > The root verb נצר (nasar II) isn’t used in the Bible but in Arabic it means to be fresh or bright or grow green. In the Bible only the masculine noun נצר (neser) occurs (four times), and that noun means branch or shoot. > > Isaiah uses it three times, once in Isaiah 11:1, where it denotes the Messiah, and once in Isaiah 60:21, where it denotes the crop God expects to grow in Israel. In Isaiah 14:19 this noun conveys a much more negative charge, as the prophet speaks of the king of Babylon as a rejected branch. Finally, the prophet Daniel uses this noun when he talks about a descendant of the daughter of the king of the South (of her “branch”). Well, that certainly clears everything up. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/122 "2018-06-16T17:09:13Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I wouldn’t say that you pause between religions as an atheist, I would say you go through a period of agnosticism. If you went atheist that means you don’t believe in a particular religious system, agnosticism is when you aren’t certain where the diety is hiding I wish we could get this clear among ourselves (and I don’t mind hi-jacking this little zombie for the purpose): Atheism means lack of theism, that is, lack of belief in god(s). It isn’t necessarily a conviction that there is/are no god(s), although it can be used that way, it simply refers to the lack of belief. It isn’t a rejection of any particular religion but a lack of belief in any religion. (Lack of belief can arise from a number of motivations or causes, from disillusionment to hard logic; it doesn’t matter to the meaning of the word.) Agnosticism means lack of knowledge, with the implied inability to choose or decide. It is short for “I’m not sure about that, because I don’t have enough evidence one way or the other.” It can, therefore, mean that you aren’t sure which religion to choose, but it is more commonly used to mean that you aren’t sure whether there is any reason to believe in god(s) or in any religion, or not. tl;dr - atheism = “I don’t believe;” agnosticism = “I don’t know.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/123 "2018-06-18T07:49:31Z")
Wait, if we remove the Christian holidays, how will we know when to start eating marshmallow Peeps and chocolate rabbit ears? Perhaps more importantly, how will we know the right day to expect them to go on sale at half price? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/124 "2018-06-18T08:01:20Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You must’ve taken that lame-o quiz on their site. I wanna take the lame-o quiz. But when I skimmed the site, I couldn’t find it. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/125 "2018-06-18T09:01:03Z")
Go - I mean YaHoo-WaHoo dammit, I didn’t even notice it was a zombie! A DOUBLE zombie! That said: > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I wish we could get this clear among ourselves (and I don’t mind hi-jacking this little zombie for the purpose): > > Atheism means lack of theism, that is, lack of belief in god(s). It isn’t necessarily a conviction that there is/are no god(s), although it can be used that way, it simply refers to the lack of belief. It isn’t a rejection of any particular religion but a lack of belief in any religion. (Lack of belief can arise from a number of motivations or causes, from disillusionment to hard logic; it doesn’t matter to the meaning of the word.) > > Agnosticism means lack of knowledge, with the implied inability to choose or decide. It is short for “I’m not sure about that, because I don’t have enough evidence one way or the other.” It can, therefore, mean that you aren’t sure which religion to choose, but it is more commonly used to mean that you aren’t sure whether there is any reason to believe in god(s) or in any religion, or not. > > tl;dr - atheism = “I don’t believe;” agnosticism = “I don’t know.” I’ve noticed that there are some folks who may reflexively tick the box as belonging to one religion or denomination or other, when the question is presented to them, but actually live their lives day by day without displaying any outward signs that whatever deity is claimed by their affiliated group affects their behavior. That is, an observer who watched them alongside an atheist for a week wouldn’t be able to discern which one was the “believer.” I’ve come to view atheism as a lifestyle, at least as much as it is a set of opinions about metaphysics. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/126 "2018-06-18T09:50:54Z")
I believe many people who claim to be a member of a religous group, and even attend, are atheist. I think it’s perfectly possible to enjoy a (for want of a better word) ‘churchlike’ community, enjoy helping the disadvantaged in the community, actively discuss issues about ‘being good’, like to have a nice sing-song on a sunday etc, without necessarily believing that the god it is based around actually exists. Most churches seem to go along just fine, without any direct input from their god, nor does it seem to be necessary. Sure, you could do all that in a secular environment as well, but some churches are pretty nice places to be a part of. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/127 "2018-06-18T10:31:04Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I wish we could get this clear among ourselves (and I don’t mind hi-jacking this little zombie for the purpose): > > Atheism means lack of theism, that is, lack of belief in god(s). It isn’t necessarily a conviction that there is/are no god(s), although it can be used that way, it simply refers to the lack of belief. It isn’t a rejection of any particular religion but a lack of belief in any religion. (Lack of belief can arise from a number of motivations or causes, from disillusionment to hard logic; it doesn’t matter to the meaning of the word.) > > Agnosticism means lack of knowledge, with the implied inability to choose or decide. It is short for “I’m not sure about that, because I don’t have enough evidence one way or the other.” It can, therefore, mean that you aren’t sure which religion to choose, but it is more commonly used to mean that you aren’t sure whether there is any reason to believe in god(s) or in any religion, or not. > > tl;dr - atheism = “I don’t believe;” agnosticism = “I don’t know.” I don’t even believe in all that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/128 "2018-06-18T12:25:28Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I don’t even believe in all that stuff. I didn’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/129 "2018-06-18T14:12:02Z")
> [@NightRider\_1](#): > > נצר I > > The root verb נצר (nasar I) means to watch, guard or keep. BDB Theological Dictionary divides the applications of this verb into five categories: > > ``` > To watch, guard or keep, for instance a vineyard (Job 27:18, Isaiah 27:3) or a fig tree (Proverbs 27:18), or men (Job 7:20). From this usage stems the word נצרים (nasarim), which means watchmen (Jeremiah 31:6) or perhaps besiegers (Jeremiah 4:16; see below). None of the sources used reckons this word as a (plural) noun, and BDB Theological Dictionary deems it a passive participle. Our verb is also used in an ethical sense: guarding one's mouth (Proverbs 13:3) or tongue (Psalm 34:13), one's way (Proverbs 16:17), and one's heart (Proverbs 4:23). > To preserve or guard from dangers (Deuteronomy 32:10, Psalm 25:21, Isaiah 26:3). From this usage stems the adjective נציר (nsyr), meaning the preserved (Isaiah 49:6 only). > To guard with fidelity, to keep or observe: loving-kindness (Exodus 34:7), a covenant (Deuteronomy 33:9), God's commandments (Psalm 78:7), parental commandments (Proverbs 6:20) and wisdom and discretion (Proverbs 3:21). > To keep (guard) secrets: secret things (Isaiah 48:6), secret places (Isaiah 65:4), or wily intentions of the heart (Proverbs 7:10) > To keep closed; blockaded or besieged (Isaiah 1:8, Jeremiah 4:16, Ezekiel 6:12) > > ``` > > נצר II > > The root verb נצר (nasar II) isn’t used in the Bible but in Arabic it means to be fresh or bright or grow green. In the Bible only the masculine noun נצר (neser) occurs (four times), and that noun means branch or shoot. > > Isaiah uses it three times, once in Isaiah 11:1, where it denotes the Messiah, and once in Isaiah 60:21, where it denotes the crop God expects to grow in Israel. In Isaiah 14:19 this noun conveys a much more negative charge, as the prophet speaks of the king of Babylon as a rejected branch. Finally, the prophet Daniel uses this noun when he talks about a descendant of the daughter of the king of the South (of her “branch”). Still no mention(let alone entry) in Wikipedia, I take it? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/130 "2018-06-18T14:25:57Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > I didn’t know that. I don’t believe you. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/131 "2018-06-18T14:56:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Still no mention(let alone entry) in Wikipedia, I take it? Hey Czarcasm, your link from a year and a half ago, post #115, tried to give me malware…I think. Just a heads up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/132 "2018-06-18T15:36:37Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > Hey Czarcasm, your link from a year and a half ago, post #115, tried to give me malware…I think. Just a heads up. Thanks for the heads-up. I have asked the mods to break the link. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/135 "2023-12-07T09:21:36Z")
> [@Saaphiel](#): > > It will not give you the truth. Care to enlighten us? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2023, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594/136 "2023-12-11T03:08:25Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I love spotting another “Cartoon History of the Universe” person. 🙂 YaHoo! > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And here is an interesting little expose of Lew White, the leader of this group. Reading his Amazon bio, I’d say he’s a hobby syncretist. (No link attached.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-natsarim/641594.md?page=6)