# The Nature of Salvation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644 "2010-02-12T01:57:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/21 "2010-02-12T03:43:22Z")
> [@rolandgunslinger](#): > > Could the same be said about non believers? If given the power and license would they kill believers? No. They have no particular reason to, nor the same excuse. They have no God to tell them that it’s OK to murder and enslave everyone within reach. Religion [corrupts the societies](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece)it parasitizes. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/22 "2010-02-12T03:44:54Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I agree except for the bolded part. Do you believe in the doctrine of eternal security or not? It would be silly for it to be any other way. What’s the point of having any rules on how to live to begin with if simple faith in Christian doctrine is enough to save you regardless of what a miserable, murdering bastard you are? What’s a benevolent deity’s purpose in establishing such a rule? If you aren’t in danger of losing grace, there’s no purpose to leading a benevolent life. Let me note, though, that I’m an atheist. Presented with the idea of a benevolent, all-powerful deity I’ll answer based on what makes the most sense. If I believed that there was any sense to be had in religion to begin with, I wouldn’t be an atheist. So, relying on any sort of logic to come to God’s intentions–depending on your interpretation–might itself be a bad thing to do. Some churches, like the Quakers, would say that figuring out what a benevolent deity would want you to do based on logic and introspection is the most important thing in Christianity–i.e. according to Jesus–while as others would say that this is simply a way to mislead yourself into your own selfish desires and the only certain way to stay good is to rely precisely on the word of the Bible as best you can understand it. Personally, I would still say that even by the word of the Bible, you’re not guaranteed grace. You have to be free of sin or repentant if you want to be saved. Mere faith won’t save you if you are sufficiently evil, and mere atheism won’t damn you if you are sufficiently good. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/23 "2010-02-12T03:58:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > To repeat: > > He’s going to act all nice and enlightened, because if he tried to call for the extermination of unbelievers he couldn’t pull it off without the government clamping down. He can’t use force, so he has to try honey instead of vinegar. But he’s still a priest for a belief system that is based on the idea that they are absolutely right and everyone else absolutely wrong. A belief system that has a long and bloody history, and all over the world in places where it and very similar belief systems can get away with it, engages in bloodshed and tyranny as much as it ever did. So you are saying that even religious leaders who preach love and tolerance are really people who would want extermination of non-believers? Wow, just wow. ---
**Author:** ![rolandgunslinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@rolandgunslinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rolandgunslinger)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/24 "2010-02-12T04:10:46Z")
I’m wondering how many believers on this board would do the awful things that **Der Trihs** seems to believe they would do if the law allowed? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/25 "2010-02-12T04:14:59Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > So you are saying that even religious leaders who preach love and tolerance are really people who would want extermination of non-believers? Just like always; killing while preaching peace and love is hardly a new thing for them. And they are killing and oppressing plenty of people right now, with agendas like anti-abortionism, the fight against condoms, the attempt to suppress stem cell research, the push by American Christians behind the Ugandan anti-homosexual laws. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/26 "2010-02-12T04:24:28Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It would be silly for it to be any other way. What’s the point of having any rules on how to live to begin with if simple faith in Christian doctrine is enough to save you regardless of what a miserable, murdering bastard you are? What’s a benevolent deity’s purpose in establishing such a rule? > Personally, I would still say that even by the word of the Bible, you’re not guaranteed grace. You have to be free of sin or repentant if you want to be saved. Mere faith won’t save you if you are sufficiently evil, and mere atheism won’t damn you if you are sufficiently good. True. Grace can only come with a clean heart. I go to confession but I will never be perfect as Jesus was. Still knowing this I try to overcome sin in my daily life. I have had some huge spiritual battles but I did overcome some of my vices with God’s help. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/27 "2010-02-12T04:25:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Just like always; killing while preaching peace and love is hardly a new thing for them. And they are killing and oppressing plenty of people right now, with agendas like anti-abortionism, the fight against condoms, the attempt to suppress stem cell research, the push by American Christians behind the Ugandan anti-homosexual laws. I’m not talking about them-I’m talking about the Archbishop of Canterbury who if you will bother to look up in Wikipedia is very much pro-abortion, pro-birch control, and pro-homosexual rights. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/28 "2010-02-12T04:36:09Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’m not talking about them-I’m talking about the Archbishop of Canterbury who if you will bother to look up in Wikipedia is very much pro-abortion, pro-birch control, and pro-homosexual rights. As I said, I don’t really believe him. More importantly, he’s the head of an organization and part of a religion that has fought against those things and just about everything else good in the world. He’s in the position of a leader of the Ku Klux Klan trying to claim that he supports racial tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/29 "2010-02-12T04:41:08Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Your statement was ridiculous and over the top. No more so than yours. You believe one thing, he believes another. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/30 "2010-02-12T04:49:02Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’m not talking about them-I’m talking about the Archbishop of Canterbury who if you will bother to look up in Wikipedia is very much pro-abortion, pro-birch control, and pro-homosexual rights. I can’t comment on it. I don’t judge others faith. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/31 "2010-02-12T05:02:07Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > pro-birch control What does he have against trees? Can’t he just leave the birches to grow on their own? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/32 "2010-02-12T06:42:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’m not talking about them-I’m talking about the Archbishop of Canterbury who if you will bother to look up in Wikipedia is very much pro-abortion, pro-birch control, and pro-homosexual rights. Curtis, before you make comments like this, go to your nearest Parker Brothers games dealer and get a Clue. Oh, and identify specifically what denomination you belong to; I’d like equal opportunity to insult the leader of yours, if you don’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/33 "2010-02-12T06:46:05Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Do you really have to troll on every thread related to God? :smack: If you believe that a poster is trolling, then report the poster. Do not accuse other posters of trolling outside **The BBQ Pit**. That said: > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s when the individuality of the victim is overcome, and they become subordinate to the religious infection. It’s when they are willing to ignore reality, their own self interests and the needs of their friends and family in order to serve their religion; Christianity or any other, there’s little difference. You are out of line. The OP asks a specific question that presumes a particular perspective. If you, or anyone else, wishes to discuss a counter prespective, open your own thread to do it. Any further posts that simply attack belief systems or Christianity will be considered deliberate threadshitting and earn a Warning. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/34 "2010-02-12T07:12:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What does he have against trees? Can’t he just leave the birches to grow on their own? Is that a Rush reference, my delightful, New Brunswickian/Nova Scotian Confectionary? Oh, wait… I am confusing you with **Anastaseon** … my mistake, I just miss her sexy posts, _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/35 "2010-02-12T07:17:53Z")
Saw my 7 or 8th New Brunswickian License plate the uder day… Almost feels like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/36 "2010-02-12T08:33:15Z")
> [@rolandgunslinger](#): > > I’m wondering how many believers on this board would do the awful things that **Der Trihs** seems to believe they would do if the law allowed? I’m wondering if someone is projecting onto believers his own desire to do the awful things to us that he accuses us of secretly wanting. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/37 "2010-02-12T08:38:51Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I’m wondering if someone is projecting onto believers his own desire to do the awful things to us that he accuses us of secretly wanting. No, I’m not. And that’s an interesting claim coming from someone who has in the past said he looked forward to me pissing myself in terror in front of God. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/38 "2010-02-12T09:08:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, I’m not. And that’s an interesting claim coming from someone who has in the past said he looked forward to me pissing myself in terror in front of God. Yes, in front of God- and I believe I noted, either then or afterwards, that I’d probably be doing my own pants-wetting in front of Him myself. If I didn’t. I should have. Also, I expressed hope that you would then melt in adoration & fall into His Fatherly embrace. You, however, seem to wet yourself at the mere thought of believers having some real power, when your own side in power have not shown themselves to be any better. You get away with collectively insulting everyone on the Board who believes in a Creator, no matter how mild & humane their religious beliefs & practices are. You effectively call Rowan Williams a wannabe Ayatollah or Inquisitor and then one of our best Christians (I’ll say he’s better than me in spite of our disagreements) jumps on Curtis for being insulting for over-stating how liberal RW may be. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/39 "2010-02-12T09:13:09Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > You, however, seem to wet yourself at the mere thought of believers having some real power, when your own side in power have not shown themselves to be any better. Ah, so secular Europe is a realm of brutal oppression and terror now? Let me guess; you are equating Communism and atheism again. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/40 "2010-02-12T09:17:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Ah, so secular Europe is a realm of brutal oppression and terror now? Let me guess; you are equating Communism and atheism again. Western European secularism does not promote the constant paranoia and hatred towards religion & religious people that you display at every opportunity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644.md?page=3)