# The Nature of Salvation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644 "2010-02-12T01:57:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/61 "2010-02-12T23:26:50Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So would you argue that nobody has to do _anything_ to recieve “salvation”? All personality types will be catered to? If I like killing people, then people will be lined up for me to kill? IMHO sin alone will do it, once someone steps out of the will of God it is a death spiral, at some point that person will realize that they were wrong, and need God, and Jesus will come to them if they seek (and they will - eventually). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/62 "2010-02-12T23:27:53Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Your version of Jesus sounds like sexually transmitted disease. Yes, like it except once you caught it you are cured. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/63 "2010-02-12T23:31:30Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > When do you think in your opinion is the moment of the conversion and salvation to Christianity? When one stops believing in religion, that’s when one’s truly saved. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/64 "2010-02-12T23:34:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > IMHO sin alone will do it, once someone steps out of the will of God it is a death spiral, at some point that person will realize that they were wrong, and need God, and Jesus will come to them if they seek (and they will - eventually). Well yeah, I know that’s what _you_ think. You’re not the one who said “True courtesy in the giving of gifts considers the taste of the recipient.” It’s pretty obvious that your God (like most envisionings of most gods) has pretty clear ideas of what it wants and it’s It’s way or the highway. By comparison the idea of a god that accomodates the preferences of others is quite novel. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/65 "2010-02-14T02:56:37Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > When one stops believing in religion, that’s when one’s truly saved. What about your namesake? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/66 "2010-02-14T03:31:46Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What about your namesake? Considering the results that following Yog Sothoth and other Lovecraftian entities tends to have, yes; not worshiping a Lovecraftian god is more likely to save you than not. Being Eaten First isn’t really all THAT much of a bonus. And avoiding attracting their attention before they DO eat humanity tends to result in a lower chance of something Unnameable happening to you. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/67 "2010-02-14T18:51:34Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What about your namesake? Yog won’t save you even if you believed in him. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/68 "2010-02-15T00:07:42Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > In this model, too, both **Der Trihs** and **kanicbird** will each eventually end up in a place they perceive as a good place to be, and will each think the other is demonstrating poor decision-making skills by choosing to remain in the bad place they’ve chosen. > > To address the OP from a different standpoint, I think it’s more a process than anything else. I was born and raised a very strict Roman Catholic, but I remember having very religious experiences as I grew up similar to the feelings of peace described by others. These became less frequent as I grew up, coupled with an idea that the Church wasn’t what it should be by the terms of its own holy books. I compared the anti-scientific views of many Catholics with the writings of Augustine of Hippo and the modern Jesuits, and my faith slipped a little. I compared Jesus’ calm assurance and sense of social justice for all with Paul’s rigid, sweeping proclamations, and my faith slipped a lot–I can still imagine Jesus looking down with a growing sort of horror as Paul’s influence waxed in Christianity. Before long, around the time of my Confirmation, it was literally true that the people I respected most in the Church were the ones who were least doctrinally pure and who were reviled by my fellow churchgoers. We had a Jesuit who was our parish priest for a long while until his untimely death, and people quit the church (going to different parishes instead) because he used examples from non-Christian philosophers and religious figures, and because he wasn’t afraid to preach about real modern problems like sexuality among teens, drunkenness, sloth (not a safe topic in a town with 90% on welfare), etc. Meanwhile, he devoted his energies to maintaining two parishes AND operating a homeless men’s shelter (still the only one of its kind for a long way in all directions)–and my faith slipped a little more, as I watched the parish reject this Godly man based on quibbles of decorum and theology. > > It was about this time that I started doing meditation on the advice of a few Christian monks who used it as part of their daily devotions. > > And there was the spark again! The one that I always associated with positive religious experiences! So I read more about meditation. This led me into the depths of religious history, and gradually I learned that it was the act of meditation itself that gave me the positive feelings and increased well-being, regardless of whether I meditated on scriptures, or on the tree in the front yard, or simply nothing at all. > > Around the time I got into college, I was Catholic in name only, getting my religious/spiritual needs met via meditative practices, and generally liking it. The pattern continued until about halfway through college I rejected the Catholic Church utterly for its frankly ridiculous policies regarding any number of moral issues, the death blow being the molestation cover-ups. Currently I describe myself as Zen Buddhist, having worked my way specifically in that direction. While I would still consider myself a theistic person, in that I have a very specific gut feeling that there is a God out there somewhere, I also feel like His relevance is very small to my daily life, and it’s the mental strength and centered-ness the techniques of Buddhism give me that are the primary benefits of the religion I practice, rather than the theology. > > These days, my salvation comes every day when I take a stray cat to the vet, or hold an elevator for someone, or just really notice some particular aspect of the world and people around me for the truly unique bit of experience that moment represents. And the feeling is more and more common as I practice more, so I’d say it’s a gradual thing–IMHO, the only salvation in this world is the salvation we provide for others and ourself and in turn have provided to us by others. > > I recognize it didn’t answer the OP exactly, but it did answer the title of the thread, and I hope that’s relevant enough. I also prefer to serve rather then be served. I do meditation also. It separates me from the bondage of self even if for a short while. I think you are being humble and he is working through you more then you know. In such a busy world it is so hard to be spiritually aware. That is why prayer and meditation are so important to me. Thanks for sharing! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/69 "2010-02-15T18:06:42Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > I also prefer to serve rather then be served. When interspersed with a discussion about Lovecraftian gods, this takes on a _whole_ new meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/70 "2010-02-15T20:34:02Z")
The entire “salvation” thing makes no sense. Who are people going to be “saved” from…except the vengeance of the fearsome god they seem to think exists? If the god wants vengeance…why would it give “salvation” from that vengeance? The part of the Bible at John 3:16 dealing with salvation is particularly vexing. Essentially what it says there is: The god of the Bible is willing to forgive humans for offending it…but only on the condition that they first torture and kill its son! That really makes sense to you folk? That really is something to brag about in your god? Imagine if you offended some fellow human…and the person told you, “I am willing to forgive you, but only if you first torture and kill my son”…what would you think of that individual? Talk to me about this…I’d really like to hear what you people have to say on it. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/71 "2010-02-15T21:16:08Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > The entire “salvation” thing makes no sense. > > Who are people going to be “saved” from…except the vengeance of the fearsome god they seem to think exists? > > If the god wants vengeance…why would it give “salvation” from that vengeance? > > The part of the Bible at John 3:16 dealing with salvation is particularly vexing. > > Essentially what it says there is: The god of the Bible is willing to forgive humans for offending it…but only on the condition that they first torture and kill its son! > > That really makes sense to you folk? > > That really is something to brag about in your god? > > Imagine if you offended some fellow human…and the person told you, “I am willing to forgive you, but only if you first torture and kill my son”…what would you think of that individual? > > Talk to me about this…I’d really like to hear what you people have to say on it. God asked Abraham, not a human asking another human. God is the creator and he wanted to know if Abraham who was not god but a human, would do his will or not. He put him to the test. God puts us to the test all the time and we either follow him of fail to do his will and do our own will. God did not make Abraham kill his son but Abraham proved his faith. In John 3 :16 God willed his own sons death on a cross to save us from our sin. God gave the ultimate sacrifice. Humanity put Jesus on the cross and crucified him. We crucified him because his ways were so above our ways. You missed the lesson in that story. “Thy will be done, not mine”. Not only Abraham but Jesus was true to what God asked of them. I understand it and I don’t find the need to brag about it. It is what it is. If you don’t believe it that is fine. Your example doesn’t make sense to me? Jesus died so that we would be forgiven. Jesus had to die as that was his lifes mission from birth. It was to save us from ourselves. If you get a chance during lent go to ‘The Stations Of The Cross’ at a local church. This will explain the Crucification story step by step. It is only a half an hour and you may see it from a different angle. Pax~ ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/72 "2010-02-15T23:13:28Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Your example doesn’t make sense to me? Jesus died so that we would be forgiven. Jesus had to die as that was his lifes mission from birth. It was to save us from ourselves. Why? That is my point…why? Why is it that your god is going to allow you to be “saved”…but only on the condition that its son first had to be tortured and killed. > [@](#): > > If you get a chance during lent go to ‘The Stations Of The Cross’ at a local church. This will explain the Crucification story step by step. It is only a half an hour and you may see it from a different angle. Pax~ I did the Stations of the Cross" in St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican…right after serving Mass in that magnificent church. By the way, I also went to Castle Gondolfo and had a general audience with Pope Pius XII. I know what the Crucifixion story is about step by step, Perciful. There was a time when I didn’t realize what a brutal, barbaric story it actually is. But I am asking you now… why is it that your god is going to allow you to be “saved”…but only on the condition that its son first had to be tortured and killed. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/73 "2010-02-15T23:19:51Z")
> [@rolandgunslinger](#): > > I think everyone pretty much knows your answer to every religious thread dude. :rolleyes: Why is it so verboten that **Der Trihs** makes these comments? Would anyone _else_ who consistently knocked down some _other_ ridiculous meme be trashed like **Trihs** is? Yes, he says basically the same things again and again, but as long as people continue behaving as if religion is necessary and sensible, and act as if there exists some all-powerful, prime-mover God, then why shouldn’t he? I mean, the God bullshit never stops, so why should he? I think his _raison d’etre_ is to constantly remind people that God-belief is bullshit and religion is something best kept to yourself because–at best-- it is a personal concept that has no value in the public sphere, and at worst, it is destructive, divisive, and hugely counter-productive. People may get tired of hearing it, but as long as people are going to treat fairy-tales as if they have some kind of importance to the world at-large then they should expect to be ridiculed and countered at every turn. The _real_ question is: on a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, why aren’t their _more_ posts like **Trihs’**? If people constantly posted discussions about the deep significance of Pencil-gnomes and how they make our femurs vibrate uncontrollably, what do you expect the reaction would be? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/74 "2010-02-16T00:14:29Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Why is it so verboten that **Der Trihs** makes these comments? Would anyone _else_ who consistently knocked down some _other_ ridiculous meme be trashed like **Trihs** is? Yes, he says basically the same things again and again, but as long as people continue behaving as if religion is necessary and sensible, and act as if there exists some all-powerful, prime-mover God, then why shouldn’t he? I mean, the God bullshit never stops, so why should he? Yes; if I get repetitive on the subject, it’s because I am responding to the same kind of assertions that have been made again and again in the past. It’s not like religion has new arguments or evidence for itself. > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I think his _raison d’etre_ is to constantly remind people that God-belief is bullshit and religion is something best kept to yourself because–at best-- it is a personal concept that has no value in the public sphere, and at worst, it is destructive, divisive, and hugely counter-productive. Pretty much. I don’t post with diatribes against, say, astrology because people here seldom if ever post in support of it. I don’t post against the belief that severed rabbit feet bring good luck, because people don’t post in support of that here. People DO post in support of religion here, however; my posting against religion is in response that. If I or someone else - and I seem elected as Resident Blunt Atheist - doesn’t post criticism, then such threads will just be full of believers congratulating each other on their enlightenment or arguing over which of their fantasies is more appealing, and ignoring even the possibility that the whole idea that religion is morally and factually wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/75 "2010-02-16T03:04:08Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Why? That is my point…why? > > Why is it that your god is going to allow you to be “saved”…but only on the condition that its son first had to be tortured and killed. > > I did the Stations of the Cross" in St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican…right after serving Mass in that magnificent church. By the way, I also went to Castle Gondolfo and had a general audience with Pope Pius XII. > > I know what the Crucifixion story is about step by step, Perciful. There was a time when I didn’t realize what a brutal, barbaric story it actually is. > > But I am asking you now… why is it that your god is going to allow you to be “saved”…but only on the condition that its son first had to be tortured and killed. I’m sorry if I offended you in any way. I would love to go to St Peter’s Basilica before I die. In the stations from Mary’s perspective “I knew it had to be so I cried quietly”. Mary accepted everything and kept it in her heart. I can’t say why God allowed Jesus to be tortured and killed except so that he would not have to destroy the earth from it’s sin. Jesus paid the ransom for many. He was killed by us. Crucify him the crowd shouted. I may not go to heaven at all. I may have to suffer a lot more. I don’t know what Gods will is for me. I don’t have all the answers. I just have great faith and hope and love. I am willing to follow my faith to the end. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/76 "2010-02-16T03:10:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes; if I get repetitive on the subject, it’s because I am responding to the same kind of assertions that have been made again and again in the past. It’s not like religion has new arguments or evidence for itself. > Pretty much. I don’t post with diatribes against, say, astrology because people here seldom if ever post in support of it. I don’t post against the belief that severed rabbit feet bring good luck, because people don’t post in support of that here. People DO post in support of religion here, however; my posting against religion is in response that. If I or someone else - and I seem elected as Resident Blunt Atheist - doesn’t post criticism, then such threads will just be full of believers congratulating each other on their enlightenment or arguing over which of their fantasies is more appealing, and ignoring even the possibility that the whole idea that religion is morally and factually wrong. Der Trihs, It doesn’t bother me if you post against believers. If not you it would be someone else. You are the ying and I am yang. It would be a pretty boring world if we all thought the same way. In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/77 "2010-02-16T03:50:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The OP asks a specific question that presumes a particular perspective. If you, or anyone else, wishes to discuss a counter perspective, open your own thread to do it. > > Any further posts that simply attack belief systems or Christianity will be considered deliberate threadshitting and earn a Warning. > > [/Moderating] > [@YogSosoth](#): > > When one stops believing in religion, that’s when one’s truly saved. Note my prior post. > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Why is it so verboten that **Der Trihs** makes these comments? Because there are ample opportunities to condemn belief in threads that are open to that topic. This thread is not one of them. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes; if I get repetitive on the subject, it’s because I am responding to the same kind of assertions that have been made again and again in the past. It’s not like religion has new arguments or evidence for itself. And since you have made the same rtepetitive posts in so many other threads, there is no need for you to interrupt one more thread to post them again. = = = I’m going to hold off Warning you guys on the grounds that you were probably just not paying attention, but here is the situation: A poster who wandered into a discussion of Anthropogenic Global Warming and announced that it did not matter because the Rapture was going to occur in the next couple of years would be threadshitting. A poster who wandered into a discussion of whether person A should be ratified as a new Supreme Court Justice to announce that the U.S. Constitution was a foolish notion and that no one should consider themselves bound by any of the articles therein would be guilty of threadshitting. Wandering into a thread discussing a particular point of theology to announce that it is all silly nonsense is threadshitting. The next poster who does that here will be Warned. If it is that important to make some similar earthshaking point, open a new thread to discuss it. **[/Moderating]** ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/78 "2010-02-16T10:20:21Z")
Some denominations teach that you must earn your salvation by doing good deeds and refraining from sin. Other denominations teach that salvation is a gift given by the Grace of God. It’s available to everyone. When you live in a state of Grace, you still make mistakes and “sin,” but you try to avoid doing that so much. Everyone messes up. That’s human. You ask for forgiveness, forgive those who have hurt you, and keep the faith. In my own personal beliefs, I don’t believe in hell. And I don’t think that heaven is exactly a place the way we may have pictured it – but something even better. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/79 "2010-02-16T14:26:35Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Why? That is my point…why? > > Why is it that your god is going to allow you to be “saved”…but only on the condition that its son first had to be tortured and killed. For the record, this was in the past so unacceptably alogical to me that it’s one of the reasons that, despite feeling that there’s some personal evidence for me that there is a god, he or she is probably not the one described in the Bible. These days from outside the religion, I can think of at least a few ways that the idea of “God had to sacrifice his son to save all humanity” could be reconciled with a coherent plan put forth by a not-fully-omni God – mostly that if we assume a) such a son could only be deliberately created (not accidental or random) and b) God values us primarily for our free will and not our praise or good behavior, then the idea of God creating a portion of itself to teach an object lesson without interfering directly in free will is at least logically coherent. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/80 "2010-02-16T14:37:39Z")
As to why “God needed to send His Son to be killed”- that is why to me only Incarnational Theology works (whether it be Trinitarian or Oneness, tho I think Trin is more Biblical)- that “The Son” is not a created entity distinct from Father God but an extension or aspect or “ever-begotten person of one substance with the Father”. Therefore, God is not beating up on someone else to satisfy Divine Justice- it is God Himself taking upon Himself the whip, the cross, the spikes, the crown of thorns & the spear. God visits His Wrath upon Himself, absorbs & transmutes it into Redeeming Love & Resurrection Power which eventually will be offered to every human who has & will ever live. Thus, His descent into Hades- which I do not consider only a past event. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644.md?page=5)