# The Nature of Salvation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644 "2010-02-12T01:57:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/81 "2010-02-16T15:07:03Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > When interspersed with a discussion about Lovecraftian gods, this takes on a _whole_ new meaning. It’s a cookbook! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/82 "2010-02-16T15:09:26Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Well yeah, I know that’s what _you_ think. You’re not the one who said “True courtesy in the giving of gifts considers the taste of the recipient.” It’s pretty obvious that your God (like most envisionings of most gods) has pretty clear ideas of what it wants and it’s It’s way or the highway. By comparison the idea of a god that accomodates the preferences of others is quite novel. God is very accommodating, after all He made us all unique and will give each of us the desires of our hearts. The scriptures state (paraphrased), no mind has conceived the wonder that await us. Totally filling, everything we see currently as a ‘sinful desire’, He has what would completely meet that need. The sinful nature will be gone, but the core of the act will be done in total Love, giving and receiving, in total Love there is no sin. That is God’s way, total Love. That is why it is His way or the highway, anyway that is not total Love is not good enough. But God will let you go down any road you chose, and one will find as they travel it that they will find out that it not what they desire, the further they travel away from God, the worse the situation will become, eventually every soul will come home. The way the soul comes home, is called salvation, where everything you did that is not done in Love, which through ‘karma’ (actually reaping what you have sown) has amplified and grown, has to be done away with. This is why Jesus came, so everything not done in Love can be placed on Him and against Him as He died on the cross. Afterwards you are free of the karma that has been coming against you. Salvation is also the path home, that you in yourself can not walk, as you don’t know the way, and one’s sin will prevent it. This is why Jesus is needed, He knows how to get you back home, to do this He has to live in you, and other believers, your individual spirit must be replaced by a new spirit, that of God Himself. As for continuing sin after salvation, God knows about it and will use it to His advantage (From Rom 8 - ‘All things are working for the good’). Also sinning takes on a different meaning, before it was a violation of the ‘written code’, now sinning becomes disobeying a order from God, such as Jonah did, and we can see what the consequences were. Though salvation is at the moment where Jesus is your Lord, it is written differently for men and women, men are told that they must ‘overcome’, while women will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith, which I believe refers not only to physical but more to spiritual children, people who she is to nurture in Love of God. If it be overcoming for men, or childbearing for women, the act is that of God living in them that will get it done. It will be God directing men how to overcome, and those men will use God’s power and wisdom, and women using the love and wisdom of God how to nurture His children. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/83 "2010-02-16T15:40:37Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Some denominations teach that you must earn your salvation by doing good deeds and refraining from sin. Really? I had not encountered any. Is that an LDS belief? Jehovah’s Witness belief? (I know a bit about the history and dynamics of those groups, but I am not that well read on their theology.) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/84 "2010-02-16T15:59:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Note my prior post. > > Because there are ample opportunities to condemn belief in threads that are open to that topic. This thread is not one of them. > > And since you have made the same rtepetitive posts in so many other threads, there is no need for you to interrupt one more thread to post them again. > > = = = > > I’m going to hold off Warning you guys on the grounds that you were probably just not paying attention, but here is the situation: > > A poster who wandered into a discussion of Anthropogenic Global Warming and announced that it did not matter because the Rapture was going to occur in the next couple of years would be threadshitting. > A poster who wandered into a discussion of whether person A should be ratified as a new Supreme Court Justice to announce that the U.S. Constitution was a foolish notion and that no one should consider themselves bound by any of the articles therein would be guilty of threadshitting. > > Wandering into a thread discussing a particular point of theology to announce that it is all silly nonsense is threadshitting. > > The next poster who does that here will be Warned. > If it is that important to make some similar earthshaking point, open a new thread to discuss it. > > **[/Moderating]** Actually he opened that door in post 14. He asked what about conversion from belief to non belief. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/85 "2010-02-16T16:05:00Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Really? > > I had not encountered any. Is that an LDS belief? Jehovah’s Witness belief? (I know a bit about the history and dynamics of those groups, but I am not that well read on their theology.) I don’t know if it’s the actual theology, but that’s pretty close to what I was taught as a backwoods Roman Catholic in a very Irish and Slavic area–“Faith without works is dead.” ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/86 "2010-02-16T16:46:40Z")
Let me recommend [A Course In Miracles](http://acim-search.miraclevision.com/std-second-edition-and-supps/index.html) to anyone who has reached the stage in life where it has become obvious that peace of mind is all you really desire and yet you seem fettered in endless concerns for “yourself” and “others”. I considered starting a new thread but for the time being, this OP has raised the question of the crucifixion and it’s relationship to Salvation, so here it is. As I awakened one morning in 1971, my body was flooded with nine words, “Jesus Christ is the Way; it’s just that simple.” I didn’t hear them, I felt them. Concurrently came the KNOWLEDGE that the universe is in God’s hands and everything is alright. I experienced the peace of God which passes all understanding. For the next 2-3 years, my life was lit with happy coincidence: I was always in the right place at the right time, saying right thing and, being totally confident, got more ass than a man has a right to. Over time, however, the immediacy of my revelation slipped away and I was left with the question, WTF does “Jesus Christ is the Way; it’s just that simple.” actually mean? It was not until 1985 that I was led to ACIM which I am sure was dictated by Jesus himself. (It has been dismissed by fundies as inspired by Satan and much of mainstream Christianity as heretical. You decide.) Over the past 25 years It has brought me,sometimes grudgingly but always inevitably, to my present pleasant understanding of God and His relationship to His One Son, all Creation. Anyhoo, here’s Jesus on the crucifixion in Chapter 6 of the text in ACIM. > [@](#): > > The crucifixion is nothing more than an extreme example. Its value, like the value of any teaching device, lies solely in the kind of learning it facilitates. It can be, and has been, misunderstood. This is only because the fearful are apt to perceive fearfully. I have already told you that you can always call on me to share my decision, and thus make it stronger. I have also told you that the crucifixion was the last useless journey the Sonship need take, and that it represents release from fear to anyone who understands it. While I emphasised only the resurrection before, the purpose of the crucifixion and how it actually led to the resurrection was not clarified then. Nevertheless, it has a definite contribution to make to your own life, and if you will consider it without fear, it will help you understand your own role as a teacher. > > You have probably reacted for years as if you were being crucified. This is a marked tendency of the separated, who always refuse to consider what they have done to themselves. Projection means anger, anger fosters assault, and assault promotes fear. The real meaning of the crucifixion lies in the _apparent_ intensity of the assault of some of the Sons of God upon another. This, of course, is impossible, and must be fully understood as impossible. Otherwise, I cannot serve as a model for learning. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/87 "2010-02-16T17:55:27Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I don’t know if it’s the actual theology, but that’s pretty close to what I was taught as a backwoods Roman Catholic in a very Irish and Slavic area–“Faith without works is dead.” But that is not what Zoe posted. The RC position that you quote, taken from the Epistle of James, is that proclaiming faith but not backing up the words with deeds, indicates that the words are hollow and that the faith, itself, does not actually exist. In Augustine of Hippo’s battle with Pelagius, (which was more focused on Original Sin), a point that seemed secondary at the time was raised, that humanity could initiate the act of salvation by seeking God. It was Augustine’s response, subsequently reiterated by various Church councils, that humans can only respond to God, (with faith and works), and can never initiate the act. Thus, the RCC has never supported the idea that people can earn salvation. (This is not to say that no Catholic has believed it or presented the idea incorrectly, but it is not a church teaching.) ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644/88 "2010-02-16T20:33:39Z")
As regards salvation…and relating to this last post of tomndebb…St. Augustine was rather forceful in his exposition on Original Sin and its effect on “salvation.” If “salvation” is meant to be “life everlasting”…then obviously “salvation” can be life everlasting in Heaven or Hell. I suspect, however, most Christians consider “salvation” to mean only “life everlasting in Heaven.” St. Augustine considered Original Sin to be a disqualifier for that kind of salvation. He taught that the souls of babies that died without first having been cleansed of Original Sin would go to Hell…albeit to a place in Hell without the full torments of that place. Thomas Aquinas attempted to lessen the harshness of that teaching by suggesting the existence of a place known as the Limbo of Innocents (or infants)…a place of “perfect natural happiness” but minus the Beatific Vision—the eternal, direct, visual communion with God that occurs for souls in Heaven. But since both Augustine and Aquinas taught that the single most tormenting aspect of Hell will be the eternal denial of the Beatific Vision…this really is not much of a change. When I was a young boy in Sunday School, the nuns taught that delaying Baptisim (the device for removing the stain of Original Sin from the soul) was a mortal sin, because it could cause a soul to go to be denied the Beatific Vision. These days, the church seems to be looking for other ways to deal with this problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nature-of-salvation/528644.md?page=4)