# The NCAA needs to lighten up on tOSU. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 8, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109 "2011-05-08T00:58:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Squooshed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Squooshed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squooshed)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/141 "2011-06-02T17:39:44Z")
The NCAA does not establish tuition prices, but it does set an upper limit on the compensation a promising high school athlete can receive: a scholarship (plus additional benefits not necessary for the purposes of this discussion). This limit caps any player’s income. And, while it is true that “market value” exists in the context of even a collusive and restrictive market such as NCAA athletics, that did not appear to be the point made above. The implication of the passage I quoted above appeared to me to be that Luck is fully and fairly compensated for his services because he chose the package most appealing to him. But, if his compensation is being restricted due to the NCAA’s collusive policies, then the fact that he got “market value” as determined by the restricted system is meaningless from the broader question of whether he is being fully and fairly compensated for his services. And, as everyone surely knows, there are no meaningful options outside of the NCAA system for someone whose career aspiration is to be an NFL player. Pretending he could instead work out on his own or join an arena league team straight from high school and progress to the NFL is fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/142 "2011-06-02T18:04:59Z")
> [@Squooshed](#): > > But, if his compensation is being restricted due to the NCAA’s collusive policies, then the fact that he got “market value” as determined by the restricted system is meaningless from the broader question of whether he is being fully and fairly compensated for his services. The method we generally use to determine full and fair compensation isn’t what the potentially-compensated wants, it’s what the compensator is willing to pay. Free markets determine how that willingness is negotiated. It’s not really different from real life. I go into my potential clients’ offices and tell them what I charge, and they choose to pay that or use one of my competitors. I don’t get to just demand a fee that’s what I feel like it should be. Similarly, college athlete recruiting is a free market because the defining aspect of a free market is present: competition. A free market being: “[an economic market operating by free competition.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free+market)” Stanford, Oklahoma State, Northwestern, Virginia, et al. all competed with each other to offer Luck a position on their payroll. You are, in essence, arguing that the restrictions in the NCAA rule book means that the market isn’t, in fact, free. By such a standard, there is no actual free market in the real world because every market has rules and restrictions. In practice, a free market isn’t an unregulated market. > [@Squooshed](#): > > And, as everyone surely knows, there are no meaningful options outside of the NCAA system for someone whose career aspiration is to be an NFL player. Pretending he could instead work out on his own or join an arena league team straight from high school and progress to the NFL is fantasy. I’m not pretending any such thing, nor am I pretending that he has to aspire to be an NFL player. With Luck’s intellectual gifts, he as a multitude of other options. He chose to accept the contract that the NCAA rules represent. What’s more, he chose to accept that contract not once (as a high school student) but twice (when he decided to forgo the draft). If we were actually honest about D-1 football and basketball, we wouldn’t pretend that they are anything but minor-league athletes hoping to make the major leagues and being paid for their services. The NCAA is the \*de facto \*minor league system for the NFL and NBA. By historical accident, though, these minor league teams happen to have found themselves located on college campuses. If college presidents as a whole wanted to kick them off campus, they could, but they like the money those business make for them too much. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/143 "2011-06-02T18:13:30Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > The Ohio State program is in big trouble. To be honest with you, it looks like the only thing Ohio State has going for it right now is that SMU got the Death Penalty in 1987, because had that not happened they’d be pretty good candidates for it right now. Ohio State is not SMU. Terrell Pryor could fuck underaged sheep in Gordon Gee’s office while boosters make it rain, and they would not get the death penlty. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/144 "2011-06-02T18:19:57Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > The method we generally use to determine full and fair compensation isn’t what the potentially-compensated wants, it’s what the compensator is willing to pay. Free markets determine how that willingness is negotiated. It’s not really different from real life. I go into my potential clients’ offices and tell them what I charge, and they choose to pay that or use one of my competitors. I don’t get to just demand a fee that’s what I feel like it should be. It is illegal for you to get together with your competitors in the legal field and decide together what the limits of that compensation will be (in this case, it would be a minimum level), which is what the NCAA does. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/145 "2011-06-02T18:59:20Z")
Again, the NCAA doesn’t set tuition Individual institutions are free to charge what they feel the market will bear, and hence what the value of the compensation they pay their football player is. Just so I’m clear: I’m not arguing the either the NCAA or the schools and coaches that break the rules are blameless for the current mess that Jim Tressel has come to exemplify. I’m just saying that the athletes and their families are not the innocent, wide-eyed victims the “pay the players” advocates sometimes seem to portray them as. The players are in fact paid, and paid pretty well in relation to the economy as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/146 "2011-06-02T19:21:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It is illegal for you to get together with your competitors in the legal field and decide together what the limits of that compensation will be (in this case, it would be a minimum level), which is what the NCAA does. You’re describing the individual universities within the NCAA as competitors, which I’m not so sure is completely true. If players are eligible to go play in the CFL or UFL, then wouldn’t they be the NCAA’s competition? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/147 "2011-06-02T19:55:38Z")
“There are 13 teams that are not part of our cartel; this is proof that our 1,300 teams don’t constitute a monopoly.” ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/148 "2011-06-02T20:01:25Z")
If 1,300 teams are competing for the pool of available high-school players, then that’s not a monopoly. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/149 "2011-06-02T20:04:08Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > If 1,300 teams are competing for the pool of available high-school players, then that’s not a monopoly. If they are working together to determine the boundaries of potential compensation, they are acting as a single entity with monopoly power. It’s an old-fashioned trust, combination, cartel, whatever you want to call it. The very fact that they are able to come to an agreement and have the power to punish those who violate the agreement is the proof. From 1985 to 1987, the Major League Baseball owners colluded to restrict free agency. Commissioner Fay Vincent concluded that the owners had “stolen” nearly $300 million from the players. It’s pretty much the same situation. ---
**Author:** ![Squooshed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Squooshed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squooshed)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/150 "2011-06-02T20:12:41Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > Again, the NCAA doesn’t set tuition Individual institutions are free to charge what they feel the market will bear, and hence what the value of the compensation they pay their football player is. I think your reasoning is backwards. The schools don’t get to think, “Hey, this guy is worth $40,000, so we’ll give him a scholarship worth $40,000.” They have only one form of currency for a football players’ compensation: a scholarship. While that scholarship has a specific dollar value for students who pay tuition at the price established by the university, the price is not set in order to provide a monetary value for athletic scholarships. The NCAA is, in effect, a monopsony setting a uniform price for an athlete’s services: one scholarship. While different schools can and do value tuition differently for non-scholarship students, the fact remains that neither an individual school nor a athlete can change the basics of the athlete’s employment contract. The athlete simply gets one scholarship, even someone like Andrew Luck who we presume for the purpose of this exercise would be more richly compensated in a world free of NCAA rules. In a universe without the NCAA’s rules, the athletes would presumably be free to exchange their services for something different than a scholarship. So, some athletes might get a scholarship plus a bag of money. Others might not get a scholarship. There likely would be a better correlation between the value of the athlete’s services and his compensation. Which, at least for me, strikes me as a fairer way of determining compensation. Now, whether the NCAA’s rules and its cartel price leads to better outcomes for the universe of athletes as a whole is debatable. But, I think it is misleading to suggest that Luck is fairly compensated because he got the market price in a highly regulated market. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/151 "2011-06-02T20:56:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is a ridiculous basis for an allegation of fixing or point shaving. This is also the first time I’ve heard any of this relating to Michigan and I don’t think it makes sense in context of what we know _did_ happen. It’s not ridiculous at all. They were “the greatest college basketball recruiting class of all time.” Yet, they couldn’t win the B10 championship and lost it under suspicious circumstances. The Northwestern game being the one with the biggest stench. Webber took $280,000 (that we know of) from the guy (Ed Martin) that was running gambling at the huge Ford Rouge plant. The UM athletic dept. was showering Martin with favors and allowing him access to the team. With the amount of money Martin was paying these kids you don’t think that they owed his gambling operation some favors? I’ve got a bridge for sale. Martin almost literally died on the courthouse steps when he was finally brought to trial. Who knows what would have come out if that trial had proceeded. The NCAA conducted a pansy-ass job of investigating the whole mess because it was so dirty they just wanted it to go away. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/152 "2011-06-03T01:58:03Z")
> [@Squooshed](#): > > I think your reasoning is backwards. The schools don’t get to think, “Hey, this guy is worth $40,000, so we’ll give him a scholarship worth $40,000.” They have only one form of currency for a football players’ compensation: a scholarship. While that scholarship has a specific dollar value for students who pay tuition at the price established by the university, the price is not set in order to provide a monetary value for athletic scholarships. You’re right but every recruited player can still easily find out exactly what that monetary value is. They then know exactly what each compensation package is worth. There is variation between those packages. Ergo, competition. NCAA athletes in D-1 football and men’s basketball operate under a set of restrictions, but so what? Every free market for athletic services operates under similar restrictions. NBA rookies have a wage scale and don’t get to choose their teams. NFL rookies will likely soon have a scale and also have the option of only playing for the team that drafted them or waiting. Under your definition, those are monopsonies, too. If the league is “one buyer” no matter how many teams are in it, then \*every \*sports league operates this way. Hockey players have one major league in North America to sell their services to. Baseball players have one major league buyer. Football and basketball are the same, as is soccer and every other team sport. All of these leagues restrict a player’s initial choice of employer \*more \*than the NCAA does. > [@Squooshed](#): > > Now, whether the NCAA’s rules and its cartel price leads to better outcomes for the universe of athletes as a whole is debatable. But, I think it is misleading to suggest that Luck is fairly compensated because he got the market price in a highly regulated market. Of course it’s not “fair” under some abstract definition of fairness. Free market pricing, whatever level of freedom that market has, isn’t abstractly fair. No-one is ever really happy with what they pay or receive. I’m not happy with what I pay Comcast for the Internet service I’m using to type this. I don’t have real options in the market for local “high”-speed internet, though, so I pay what they want. I could choose to not participate in that market, but I choose to do so. Luck made the same decision. You can argue about abstract fairness all you want and “what if” until the cows come home, but the fact is, markets decide what is fair. There are markets for athletic services, and _all_ of them are cartels to a greater or lesser extent. Luck has arguably a better deal than he might in some minor-league football system. At least he gets a marketable degree along with the ability to display his talents in a huge market for potential future awards. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/153 "2011-06-03T02:38:58Z")
Actually no. Other leagues are Leo Inited by law from colluding in this manner. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/154 "2011-06-03T02:50:00Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Actually no. Other leagues are Leo Inited by law from colluding in this manner. Huh? I’m going to proceed on the assumption that’s an iPhone auto-correct for “prohibited.” The fact is, they all do “collude.” MLB has an explicit antitrust exemption. The one time the NFL was challenged as an illegal trust, they were forced to pay $3.00 in damages. The NHL and NBA have their salary caps and other trappings of collusion, and they operate legally. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/155 "2011-06-03T03:10:43Z")
The MLB and NBA salary caps were the by-product of collective bargaining, which is why they are not considered to be collusive. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/156 "2011-06-03T03:43:26Z")
But they still are in place. Minor league players have no more say in the collective bargaining process than college students in the NCAA. So what is the real qualitative difference between the NCAA as a minor league and other minor leagues? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/157 "2011-06-03T11:18:24Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > It’s not ridiculous at all. They were “the greatest college basketball recruiting class of all time.” Yet, they couldn’t win the B10 championship and lost it under suspicious circumstances. Your say-so does not make the circumstances “suspicious.” They were a great recruiting class. That does not guarantee they were going to win a championship as freshmen and sophomores playing against more experienced (if less talented) players. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/158 "2011-06-03T14:00:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > {RP McMurphy’s} say-so does not make the circumstances “suspicious.” They were a great recruiting class. That does not guarantee they were going to win a championship as freshmen and sophomores playing against more experienced (if less talented) players. RPMcMurphy’s supposition is reasonable, but, that’s it. I read the sports pages closely and I’ve never heard an express link between the Michigan Fab 5/Webber and point shaving at UM before. I’m not denying that it happened. RP, could you produce a cite to a third party reliable source, please, such as a Detroit newspaper story or something such as that? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/159 "2011-06-03T14:03:24Z")
No, it certainly isn’t impossible. But you can’t take what’s known about the scandal, cherry pick a couple of facts, and say that proves there was point shaving - potentially including Michigan losing championships on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109/160 "2011-06-03T14:17:02Z")
As I said in another thread recently, people who think there is a conspiracy ignore the facts that do not support the conspiracy or they dismiss them as part of the conspiracy because it can’t look too obvious. I do not believe the Fab Five shaved points. I don’t remember the Mich/NU game from almost 20 yrs ago but if point shaving was really involved Michigan still could have win the big 10 Championship.(and not covered the spread). The fact is: Good teams occasionally lose to less talented team. $h!t Happens!! Talented Players get sick, less talented players get in the zone. YE Yang takes down Tiger Woods in a final round of a major. If there was any substance to a point shaving scandal at Michigan, too many people would know the secret for it not to have surfaced. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ncaa-needs-to-lighten-up-on-tosu/581109.md?page=9)