# The Need To Determine Who Gets Into Heaven **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2003, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540 "2003-10-15T10:05:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Peace\_Lady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9adbd/32.png) [@Peace\_Lady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peace_Lady)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/61 "2003-10-27T20:02:38Z")
Hi, Haven’t been around lately much for a reason - just diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. 4-6 months tops. I’ll do the best I can to bring an answer to everyone. 42 - my brother died of this at 42, and an uncle at 42. SUX!!! Peace Lady ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/62 "2003-10-27T20:07:57Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by kniz_ - > \*\*You also know that Paul never, ever quoted Jesus? > \*\* Never, ever? Not even in 1 Corinthians 11:23-25, and Acts 22:3-11? 🙂 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/63 "2003-10-27T21:02:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JRDelirious \* > **Both people with some sort of urge to feel superior to someone.** Bingo. Red Sox fans yell “Yankees suck!” not in reference to the actual team, which demonstrably does not suck, but in vaguely defined reference to Yankees _fans_, to whom Red Sox fans feel themselves superior because being a Yankee fan is so, um, _easy_ or something. Red Sox fans therefore manufacture a worldview in which they can feel superior to Yankees fans. And Yankees fans, of course, manufacture a worldview based on actual World Series appearances and victories, and thus feel themselves superior to Red Sox fans (and everybody else). Meanwhile, Detroit Tigers fans feel superior to both of them, because only a _true_ fan sticks by the team when things are tough. Cineastes (hardcore film buffs) look down their noses at people who enjoy _Maid in Manhattan_ and _Pearl Harbor_ and _Scooby Doo_ because they feel they understand better the potential of film as a form of high art, and can dismiss the mainstream stuff as nothing more than cultural wallpaper. Mainstream movie viewers look down their noses at the movie geeks and cinema cognoscenti, calling them pretentious twerps (I was once called an “arthole”) whose lives are so deficient that they must spend hours analyzing that one strangely repetitive camera move showing Gene Hackman talking to that one woman in _The Conversation._ Country-music fans say hiphop and rap aren’t music, and dismiss the genre and its followers as ignorant morons. Rap and hiphop fans say country music is for retarded sheepfuckers. People in Northern California deride people in Southern California as sunstroked, short-attention-span wealth-obsessed materialists who ignore the poor immigrants who actually do their work. People in Southern California deride people in Northern California as snotty SUV liberals who don’t understand the true economics of the state. People who wear Nikes think people who wear Reeboks don’t know what a quality shoe really feels like. People who wear Reeboks think people who wear Nikes have been deluded by the marketing. And people who wear Avia and Brooks think the Nike and Reebok wearers are both puppets of corporate manipulation. People who choose American cars over foreign cars believe people who choose foreign cars are traitors. People who choose foreign cars over American cars believe people who choose American cars are fools. People who prefer Windows think Mac users are elitist twerps. People who prefer Macs think Windows users are bullies. _Star Trek_ fans think _Star Wars_ fans are brain-dead Lucas apologists who don’t know what true science fiction is. _Star Wars_ fans think _Star Trek_ fans are anal-retentive utopian-fantasy nerds who don’t know how to have fun. Employees of ABC Corporation go to their quarterly all-hands meeting, collect their cheap ABC-logo t-shirt, and obediently boo the logo of competitor XYZ when the rah-rah CEO displays it on the big screen. Employees of XYZ Corporation go to their quarterly all-hands meeting, collect their cheap XYZ-logo t-shirt, and obediently boo the logo of competitor ABC when the rah-rah CEO displays it on the big screen. Christians think Muslims are going to Hell. Muslims think Hindus are insane. Wiccans think everybody’s out to get them. Buddhists think everybody needs to chill (and become Buddhist). Or whatever. Doesn’t matter. Write the sentence and leave the noun blank, like Mad Libs. Whatever you fill in later, it’ll have a grain of truth. It’ll also be a misleading generalization, but that will be overlooked by the Faithful. This is news? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/64 "2003-10-28T00:41:29Z")
Cervaise, I think the stereo-“type” key is stuck on your keyboard. I am a “believer”, but have absolutely no idea of who is going to Hell. I hope no one. Any person who really professes to know is a liar or has truly been fooled. I realize that many “believers” would pull Bible verses out and say that it’s right there. As I glance at 6 or 7 different versions of the Bible, I realize that even if all the words all were “divinely inspired”(believe some were, some weren’t), then written down by imperfect people, then interpreted by more imperfect people that it would be ridiculous to take everything literally. It’s like the story whispered around a big circle of people. I think the truest reason people profess to have all the answers is we have somehow been taught that to say “I don’t know” is a weakness. Maybe it’s not so much the need to feel superior, but the fear of feeling inferior. I don’t know.😛 IWLN ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/65 "2003-10-28T02:31:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > **Any person who really professes to know is a liar or has truly been fooled.** Sadly, we do not suffer from a shortage of liars and fools. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/66 "2003-10-28T03:46:48Z")
No Cervaise we don’t suffer a shortage of either. And unfortunately they come in all religions and races. The only thing they have in common is they’re all human. They just don’t act like it. I believe totally and without any reservations in God, but I have a tough time considering myself a part of any “religious” doctrine that doesn’t continuously promote kindness, love, forgiveness and most of all tolerance(okay, don’t tease me for being sappy). Sense of humor wouldn’t hurt either. Would like to think that truly believing in God would make a person at least try to hold themselves to a higher standard of behavior, no judges allowed. Not superior, just more effort to do good works, not flap jaws. Sigh. IWLN ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/67 "2003-10-28T05:23:12Z")
Peace Lady, I’m so sorry about your news. It does indeed suck. I’ll pray for you. If you’re an atheist, you’ll just have to forgive me. I hope your Drs. are wrong. It must be a hard thing to say out loud or post a message about. Hard to know how to respond, too. Someday, I hope long into your future, if you manage to bring back an answer, make sure there is at least one believer and one non-believer in the room, so they won’t argue about it later.:dubious: Take care of yourself. IWLN ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/68 "2003-10-28T09:52:25Z")
GodlessSkeptic, I’m not going to go back through your thoughts, rebuttals, whatever you want to call them here. In my last couple of posts to Cervaise, I answered what the original topic of this post was. I’m guilty of going off the topic. I try to behave but God knows it’s difficult. :rolleyes: I have a few rebuttals of my own. Always have, always will. But I’ll start a new thread, if I can get my computer to behave. I never had this kind of computer trouble before I started playing with Atheists. So before I go over there I want you to know that I respect your right to your beliefs, but don’t even remotely understand. So if I pose a question, it’s not a challenge, simply a question. Thanks, IWLN P.S. Okay, this is my third try. Will post other questions tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/69 "2003-10-28T15:44:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*GodlessSkeptic, I’m not going to go back through your thoughts, rebuttals, whatever you want to call them here. In my last couple of posts to Cervaise, I answered what the original topic of this post was. I’m guilty of going off the topic. I try to behave but God knows it’s difficult. :rolleyes: I have a few rebuttals of my own. Always have, always will. But I’ll start a new thread, if I can get my computer to behave. I never had this kind of computer trouble before I started playing with Atheists. So before I go over there I want you to know that I respect your right to your beliefs, but don’t even remotely understand. So if I pose a question, it’s not a challenge, simply a question. Thanks, IWLN P.S. Okay, this is my third try. Will post other questions tomorrow. \*\* Sounds good IWLN.I would like to point out though that I do not think anyone here is necessarily “stereotyping” ALL believers as ignorant/intolerant fundies.The OP is refering to a specific type of theist and it is THAT type of theist that we are addressing. Obviously, if you do not play the “You’re in but THAT guy is out!” game of bribing people with Heaven and threatening others with Hell then our challenges probably do not apply to you. Look forward to any questions asked or answered. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/70 "2003-10-29T15:06:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > I might weep for the souls that are lost, except that I think to myself: Is not Jesus Lord of all things, for all time? And does He not love us, each one? And is His love not perfect? How then are the souls of His children lost, but for a moment in the vast halls of eternity? Where shall they go, that He cannot find them? > > So, I do not weep, but have faith, that the Lord save each soul that will be saved. And it is by Love that our souls are made immortal, not by deeds. What **Triskadecamus** said. Madeleine L’Engle takes this reasoning a step further: God, whose love for us is everlasting, has all of eternity to win over every human heart. His love is infinite; our hate and greed and selfishness and stubbornness isn’t. Like a coin that has perfect freedom to come up either heads or tails on each flip, but of a certainty will eventually come up heads if we flip it enough times, eventually we will all give God some sort of opening into our hearts. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/71 "2003-10-29T15:24:21Z")
Then why bother making a coin with two sides? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/72 "2003-10-29T16:01:21Z")
How do you make a coin with one side? Is there good without bad? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/73 "2003-10-29T18:10:45Z")
**Peace Lady** I have some experience with this sort of thing. If you would like to talk, email me. No conditions. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/74 "2003-10-29T18:42:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cervaise \* > > Christians think Muslims are going to Hell. I’m a Christian. I do not think Muslims are going to Hell. I put the lie to your stereotype mind. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/75 "2003-10-29T20:17:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*I’m a Christian. I do not think Muslims are going to Hell. > > I put the lie to your stereotype mind. \*\* Uh? You missed out the qualifying > [@](#): > > **Write the sentence and leave the noun blank, like Mad Libs. Whatever you fill in later, it’ll have a grain of truth. It’ll also be a misleading generalization, but that will be overlooked by the Faithful.** I thought it perfectly clear that **Cervaise** “used” these stereo-types (and others) rhetorically to establish a general pattern of people’s desire to see themselves belonging to the _right_ “club” – I don’t believe they were written to be (nor could they reasonably be read to be) a literal exposition of his beliefs. Your selective quote is about as fair as me quoting you thus: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > **I’m a Christian. I do not think…** (actually, yours was worse, at least indicates the ellipsis.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/76 "2003-10-29T20:18:14Z")
^mine, ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/77 "2003-10-29T20:47:58Z")
Thank you, **TGU.** You read my intent correctly, whereas **Dogface** , unsurprisingly, missed the point entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540/78 "2003-10-30T05:06:28Z")
**Peace Lady** , you have chosen a beautiful name for yourself. You said that you’ve just been diagnosed. Are you still in a state of disbelief? I hope that you are not having to endure a lot of physical pain. If there is anything…You may need a friend and I may need to be of help in some way. May you grow from Strength to Strength in ways we don’t yet understand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-need-to-determine-who-gets-into-heaven/207540.md?page=3)