The Need To Determine Who Gets Into Heaven

Since svt4him hasn’t come back, would you like to answer my questions?

  1. So a serial killer who sincerely repents and calls upon Christ just before the lethal injection is welcomed into Heaven?

  2. Whereas a decent atheist, who is a loved member of society, but who believes in science (not faith) will be denied entry to Heaven?

  3. And a Buddhist will also miss out? (because he thinks Jesus is just a wise man).

Isn’t it interesting who seems to be the most determined to find out who gets into heaven in this thread?


Y’know, Shodan points out one thing the OP left out: there’s really TWO groups of people who seem often obsessed with trying to nail down the Christians on who is and isn’t “heaven”-bound, and who won’t be satisfied by anything anyone answers: superficial Christians who are hung up on their brand of salvation-in-a-box; and people who seem to believe they’re somehow laying down some clever logic trap to “prove” that Christianity is a cruel, unfair religion.

Both people with some sort of urge to feel superior to someone.
glee, question #1 is a no-brainer in Christian theology: if he sincerely repents and believes – and may I point out yoy have yourself presupposed it’s sincere – then yes, he is saved. So sez every major flavor of Christianity.

OTOH, questions #2 and #3 are still under debate (and how!) depending on which school of thought you hold within the larger body of Christianity, from fundamentalist to universalist, from Orthodox to pentecostal, from catholic to gnostic.

You do recognize that this statement also applies to you, right? (The part about having perfect foresight.)

Luke 6:41-42
[ul][li]6:41 Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?[/li][li]6:42 Or how can you say to your neighbor, ‘Friend, let me take out the speck in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye.[/ul][/li][/Quote]

Can you cite where this was said by Jesus? I’m fairly sure you can find it somewhere in the writings of Paul, but I’m interested in Christianity not Pauline theology. You also know that Paul never, ever quoted Jesus?

I find sayings of Jesus that contradict it, such as:

Book of Luke
[ul][li]10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?[/li][li]26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?[/li][li]27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.[/li][li]28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.[/ul][/li][/Quote]

That is pretty much what Guinastasia said at the beginning of that other thread.

But what if we come up with another answer besides the one you stringently adhere to? In your eyes it is MY WAY or the highway. I believe I’ve found something in the Bible that addresses that mode of thinking.

Book of Matthew
[ul][li]23:13"I’ve had it with you! You’re hopeless, you religion scholars, you Pharisees! Frauds![/li][li]14 Your lives are roadblocks to God’s kingdom. You refuse to enter, and won’t let anyone else in either.[/li][li]15"You’re hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You go halfway around the world to make a convert, but once you get him you make him into a replica of yourselves, double-damned.[/ul][/li][/Quote]

Why not?

What is the basis for any assertion that the Bible contains God’s “thoughts and desires?”

I’m at the point where I agree with this statement.

These people here. They’re quoting out of a book that’s what…2000 years old? 2000 years!
And when they’re pressed for any proof that the bible is nothing more than an ancient book of fairy tales they start to talk about “faith”. Faith?:rolleyes: 5 year olds have “faith” that Santa Clause exists! “Faith” is the belief in something without evidence, or other anoying requirements.
Might as well be arguing if the cow jumped over the moon. There is just as much evidence in THAT as there is in the stories in the bible: NONE!

If the Christian God exists, and is accurately described by the Bible, the he doesn’t deserve any devotion or dedication. I tend not to fawn over genocidal maniacs.

That comment is based on the assumption that we need God to “bail us out”. We don’t. All we need God to do is not condemn us. I mean, God is the one who will supposedly decide whether or not to fling your soul into the Lake of Eternal Fire, right? It’s not like people naturally default to being Hellbound. God decided to make us all Hellbound. And then I’m supposed to think that he’s saving us when he offers Heaven to a select few?

That’s like a father deciding to beat all his children, all the time, except the ones who are really obedient, and then expecting the obedient children to be grateful for not having their asses kicked because he’s convinced them that being beaten by their father is what all children deserve.

That’s just twisted.

Looks like Daddy’s convinced you that you deserve to be beaten on a regular basis, and the only reason some of you aren’t is because he loves you.

Is there some Meta-universal branch of the Child Protective Services I can report God to for being an abusive parent? Maybe we can all get put in a nice foster-universe where we don’t have to worry about eternal torment.

Nobody had any comment the last time I posted this, so perhaps I’ll try again (minor changes due to the difference in topic):

God has no body; only a capacity for manipulating energy in various forms, and a desire to know every possible experience that energy in all its myriad manifestations can undergo.

So it created the universe. It “salted” the physical universe with concsiousnesses that, being tied to material bodies, have the ability to take in and respond to the experiences they undergo.

When the consciousnesses are no longer attached to physical bodies, God can “download” all of the experiences and the responses they elicited.

It isn’t heaven; it’s data retrieval. God wants ALL of the data, so it takes it from ALL of the subjects.

Says who?


PROVE what you just posted!

There is the possibility there is more than heaven or hell awaiting us. I believe we all existed in the spirit world before life and will return when we die. Whatever judgements and/or punishment received for our deeds will come from us and not God. Actually we do that every day now.


Leroy (if that is still your name?), the website is ahem! “experiencing difficulties”.

Nonetheless (and ignoring the fact that it was blatantly unnecessary to quote the entirety of my post: Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V are your friends, man!), positing “souls waiting to be born” in the billions of years before Earth’s existence poses considerable logical inconsistencies: The number of such souls must be fixed. [ul][li]Is this number exactly equal to all of the physical human lives that will ever come to pass? []At which point in biological meiosis/mitosis does the soul imbue the zygote? []How can the actions during life logically have any consequences for where the soul spends its eternity thereafter, given that this 70-year lifespan constitutes a negligible fraction of said soul’s entire existence?[/ul][/li]
Note that I shall only engage you on the understanding that you are debating in good faith. Any wilful bifurcation, non-sequiturs or insistence on fallacious arguments will result in me immediately stepping off the carousel lest I become nauseous.

Goodness gracious. Look at all the people who are willing to make judgments about who’s “worthy” and who’s not.

What makes you think that a god would view Ghandi as good, or Hitler as evil? You’re merely substituting your own judgment for God’s, which is the ultimate and only sin according to your own religions!

I think you all should go reread Genesis a few more times.

I’ll pretty much take my own Church out of this question by quoting one of our Saints (Theophan the Recluse):

If you insist on the spiritual world being understood in terms of the physical then you will become nauseous.

Why should the number of souls be important, we don’t know how many physical worlds there are, could be millions. I know there are more than earth, or at least have heard spiritual talk of them. Physical worlds are scaled according to spiritual growth so I am told. Our earth is only a number 3, on a scale of 1 to 10. If this is correct there are a lot worse places than here.

The soul usually enters the baby at the moment of birth or shortly before I am told. But there are instances when the soul will want to get started earlier.

“How can the actions during life logically have any consequences for where the soul spends its eternity thereafter, given that this 70-year lifespan constitutes a negligible fraction of said soul’s entire existence?” It doesn’t.

The link did have a booboo. Left out the period.
Just put a period after the www


I will respectfully decline.

It is what I believe.

I felt invited to share it, so I did.

Feel free to disregard it, if it fails to meet any needs you may be experiencing. However, if it ever occurs to you to wonder why I don’t concern myself overmuch with the question*, it might provide some insight.

*Not that I expect anybody to be wondering that, of course. I’m just saying.

We can quote Bible verses til Hell freezes over(sorry). Religion at times has done more harm than good in insisting their way is the only way. Newsflash. God doesn’t have religious affiliations. Man formed those. I said it in another thread, but since God isn’t physically here, the only way to show that you are trying to be “worthy” is to be good, kind, giving, etc. to all. There is always room for improvement.Making any judgements on who you think will be in heaven is mean spirited when it excludes certain religions or people. To try and tell anyone “you know” what the answer is probably means you need to spend more time listening to God and less time listening to yourself talk. I think the whole Jesus story was to try and tell us of the depth of Gods love. If you read the new testament, after the crucifixtion, God poured out a spirit of grace and petition on Jerusalem and the house of David. That doesn’t sound like he’s holding a religious grudge. Took it out of context, but I don’t believe that religion is going to have anything to do with going to heaven. I’ve always considered myself a Christian, but I always want to preface it with “alot of the views of the typical Christian are not shared by this one.” Shouldn’t have to have a disclaimer about a religious affiliation, but alot of bad stuff has been done in the name of religion. I have a theory. I truly believe that there are some people inhabiting this earth that have no soul, not an insult, just a fact. It would explain alot. I also prefer it to a perfectly good soul being taken over by evil. I don’t think the day you die is the end of any chance of going to heaven. It just wouldn’t make sense that people raised to believe certain ways are just out of luck. A lot of “non-believers” have spend more time trying to find the answers than we have. Know more about the Bible than we do.(Shame on us.)Smug=lazy, skeptical=searching. Believers watch out, God’s bouncer might be a good-hearted atheist. :eek: IWLN

SentientMeat, I have a twisted sense of humor and I immediately pictured Ghandi in heaven wearing what was left of Hitler on his feet.(funny, but not). I’m really here to address the discussion you and Lekatt were having. I believe the soul is waiting for the baby and never is the baby waiting for a soul. Sorry pro-choicers. (Don’t want to go there, though). I’m also of the belief that there are many worlds. I’m not sure about worlds being scaled according to spiritual growth, where did that come from? I have before tried to explain that the 70 years is really such a minute portion, that although what we do here counts, the suffering that this life can entail is minimal on the bigger scale(although still hard to accept at times). Do we have a certain amount of souls alloted for our world. Who knows? When they’re used up, is this part of the trip over? Did the birth control pill extend man’s life on earth?(oops, some of that twisted humor). Anyway, the whole point of this is the soul existing before birth comment. I’m going to tell you a real life experience dear to my heart, but I do have my “Scoffguard” on.

When my youngest child was less than 2, closer to 1 1/2, she was speaking in amazingly long sentences and had a huge vocabulary. Keep in mind, I had never had her in daycare, with babysitters and we weren’t attending church at that time. I wish I could quote this word for word. I never thought I’d forget it, but she’s 27, so I’ll give you what I remember. Out of the blue one day she said, “You know mommy, dead isn’t really dead.” She went on to explain to me that just like in winter, flowers, the top of the plant dies, but comes back brand new again in the spring. She told me people were like that too. They never really died. They just changed. I was stunned, but sent her back to watch Sesame Street and that was the end of the conversation for her. She was so matter of fact. I did question her later about where she had learned that and she said she didn’t know, she just knew. I had never thought about it before that, but I believe she was remembering when she was a soul, before her birth, which I’d pretty much always believed was hooey. She, for the next couple of years made bizarre little comments about feeling like her head didn’t fit on her body(remember this was a toddler/pre-schooler). Her siblings teased her about being an alien. She also had an amazing habit of coming into my room in the middle of the night and asking me why I was sad(at the times that I really was). She has forgotten about any of that. If there are any “residual leftovers” from it, it would be that she is too compassionate for this world. She hurts when anyone else hurts. Can’t watch the news without it haunting her. Her empathy is enormous, which is a tough way to be in this world. The irony(or is it) is that she has become a lawyer. Okay kidding on that irony part. Our family just loves to tell her lawyer jokes though.

Anyway, my point is life is eternal, I just don’t have the exact details of where we’ve been and where we’re going. I do remember noticing years ago that in “the creation story”, it talks about God creating man and woman in his divine image(our souls?) and then goes on to create earth, skies, Adam, Eve, etc. I have enjoyed this part of our “journey” even though it hasn’t all been good, some has hurt, it’s all been useful for growth. I don’t believe Heaven is a geographical location. It’s more a term for being with God rather than seperated. IWLN

This conclusion (that there’s no point in being good) is wholly amoral*.

One could always try being good, merely for its own sake.
As an aside, according to today’s The Guardian

Yeah, right. I wonder how many of them believe their neighbours are going to hell, they didn’t seem to ask that.

Here’s a link to the authors of the research, Barna Research Group.

(My italics) Nice anti-intellectual spin there, Jesus (blame BRG if I misattribute).
*indeed, what sort of a god could reward anyone who was good merely because they sought that reward? Isn’t that the whole definition of self-interest?

Why wouldn’t a god reward those who acted out of self-interest?

If God is supposed to be ineffable, what grounds do you have for assuming anything about how He will act?


Don’t want to copy all you said but think it’s neat.

Children often know more about the spiritual than adults, because they are closer to it. I think your daughter is far along on her spiritual growth. Her compassion will help others, if she can handle the downside.

When I was very young I knew I was not from this world and there was a better place. I wanted to go back.

Normally children are told to not talk about these these things and forget them in time. Some children can see and talk to their guides and parents are freaked out by the “imaginary” playmates.

Our society has been trained to think badly of these things, but as time goes by the pendulum will swing back and they will be more accepted.