# "The New Apartheid" Wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806 "2006-01-06T22:28:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BoringDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/41 "2006-01-08T19:49:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If the economic value of illegal-immigrant labor is so trivial, why is the Bush Admin so ready to bend over backwards to accommodate the employers of such labor, e.g., with his “guest-worker” program? (Somehow I don’t think concern for the laborers themselves played any kind of role in that decision.) This is obvious. He is willing to do this because cheap labor benefits his supporters disproportionately to society as a whole. And secondarily as a sop to Hispanic groups in an attempt to win votes. Cheap labor is like free trade - you can certainly make the argument that overall GDP is helped by it, but the facts on the ground show that there are definitely subgroups in America that are greatly harmed by both. And those subgroups that are most harmed are the lowest rung in society, while those that most benefit are the upper and upper middle. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/42 "2006-01-08T19:57:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And Norse was spoken in the USA 400 years before Spanish was spoken- so? And then there’s Cherokee, Apache, Chippewa . . . ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/43 "2006-01-09T03:25:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So- US Citizens _can’t_ own real Property (in that zone) can they? Although certainly it doesn’t single out Americans, it does restrict Americans from owning real Property. And, since it only applies to a border area, it is clearly aimed at Americans. > > Does the USA have a similar law restricting Mexicans from owning real property? No. Thus Mexico restricts it’s foriegn residents in a way that it would call racist if used by the USA. And, like I said- the Mexican gov’t has very restrictive immigration polcies and controls over it’s own “illegal immigrant” problem from central America. Mexico asks for an open border with the USA and claims that we are being “racist” by arresting their illegals or building a wall- but\* they\* don’t have an open border from the south, now do they? Thus- hypocrites. Mexico has a border with Belice and Guatemala. The restricted zone is only a narrow band along borders and coastline. It ism’t clearly aimed at Americans. That is your clearly your subjective opinion. In the rest of the country, over 90% of it’s territory, foreigners can own property. If you are trying to use this as some form of justification for your argument you are way off base. All countries restrict foreigners in one way or another. The US, I believe has restrictions on foriegners owning broadcast media. US immigration policy has always been guided by racism. Try reading your own history. Exclusionary laws based on race were common. Non-whites have always been easy to turn into scapegoats whenever certain political factions find it convenient. As far as restrictive immigration policies, can you please enlighten the board to what these restrictions are and who they restrict? You obviously do you have that information to be able to make such a statement. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/44 "2006-01-09T03:27:28Z")
> [@BoringDad](#): > > Cheap labor is like free trade - you can certainly make the argument that overall GDP is helped by it, but the facts on the ground show that there are definitely subgroups in America that are greatly harmed by both. And those subgroups that are most harmed are the lowest rung in society, while those that most benefit are the upper and upper middle. The same holds true here in Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/45 "2006-01-09T04:40:52Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > US immigration policy has always been guided by racism. This is the second time (at least) you’ve made that assertion. This non-WASP American understands the English term _always_ to mean _as it was in the past, still is_. What proof do you have that the current immigration policy of the government of the United States of America is guided by racism. And, just for the fun of it, leave out your subjective opinions of the matter. Enlighten us with facts, current facts. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/46 "2006-01-09T04:52:07Z")
> [@](#): > > And Norse was spoken in the USA 400 years before Spanish was spoken- so? Did the Norse ever get to the territory of the modern-day US? I thought the furthest south they got was Newfoundland. Anyways, the Irish were first. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/47 "2006-01-09T05:05:53Z")
> [@yBeayf](#): > > Did the Norse ever get to the territory of the modern-day US? I thought the furthest south they got was Newfoundland. Well, there’s at least two schools of thought on that. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland#Localisation\_debate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland#Localisation_debate) > [@yBeayf](#): > > Anyways, the Irish were first. 🆒 😃 St. Brendan! [http://ameba.lpt.fi/~zaphod/irish/lyrics/saint\_brendans\_voyage](http://ameba.lpt.fi/~zaphod/irish/lyrics/saint_brendans_voyage) ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/48 "2006-01-09T05:37:07Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > This is the second time (at least) you’ve made that assertion. This non-WASP American understands the English term _always_ to mean _as it was in the past, still is_. What proof do you have that the current immigration policy of the government of the United States of America is guided by racism. > > And, just for the fun of it, leave out your subjective opinions of the matter. Enlighten us with facts, current facts. How about the current treatment of Haitian refugees? [Hope of speedy release of Haitian refugees fails](http://billnelson.senate.gov/news/details.cfm?id=244673&) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/49 "2006-01-09T14:35:29Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > Spanish has an interesting case in that it was spoken in the US before English. Is a legal second language in at least one state. How can there be a legal second language when English hasn’t been accepted as a legal _first_ language? We have no national language. Not legally, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/50 "2006-01-09T15:01:44Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > How about the current treatment of Haitian refugees? > > [Hope of speedy release of Haitian refugees fails](http://billnelson.senate.gov/news/details.cfm?id=244673&) How about them? They came here illegally. What evidence is there that racism is involved? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/51 "2006-01-09T15:11:00Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > How about them? They came here illegally. What evidence is there that racism is involved? Why are Cuban refugees afforded different treatment? Don’t they come here “illegally”? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/52 "2006-01-09T15:19:45Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > How about them? They came here illegally. What evidence is there that racism is involved? “Even as the U.S. Department of State is warning travelers away from Haiti and evacuating non-essential embassy personnel, the U.S. government continues to pursue a policy of, as President Bush stated, “turn back any [Haitian] refugee that attempts to reach our shore.” This includes aggressive interdiction at sea with scant investigation of refugees’ need for asylum prior to repatriation, and long detentions followed by cursory hearings and return to Haiti . The treatment of Haitian refugees and immigrants stands in stark contrast to the way that refugees from Cuba , China , and other nations are handled.” Please tell me John, why then are they singled out for different treatment? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/53 "2006-01-09T15:24:35Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Why are Cuban refugees afforded different treatment? Don’t they come here “illegally”? I think you know the answer to that, and it doesn’t involve race. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/54 "2006-01-09T16:49:57Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Why are Cuban refugees afforded different treatment? Don’t they come here “illegally”? No, because the law says any Cuban who reaches land in the US is automatically granted asylum. Haitian refugees are economic refugees, and Cubans are recognized as politcal refugees. That has nothing to do with race. In fact, many Cubans are Black. If you can show that Black Cubans are systematically treated differently than non-Black Cubans, then you’d have a case. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/55 "2006-01-09T17:46:57Z")
> [@Walter Windchill](#): > > I think the wall WILL work for its real purpose, which has nothing to do with keeping out illegal immigrants and everything to do with pandering to redneck voters. … and you don’t understand why so many poor and working class whites mistrust the left … ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/56 "2006-01-09T19:19:13Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > No, because the law says any Cuban who reaches land in the US is automatically granted asylum. Haitian refugees are economic refugees, and Cubans are recognized as politcal refugees. That has nothing to do with race. In fact, many Cubans are Black. If you can show that Black Cubans are systematically treated differently than non-Black Cubans, then you’d have a case. Yes John and why does the law grant Cubans asylum and not Haitians? By what criteria is this determined? The reason Cubans are admitted is purely political. The Cubans have a powerful voting block in Florida that protects them. Haitians are bring turned back at sea without having even a chance to apply fo political asylum. Haiti suffers from a far worse political situation than do Cubans. Why does the US refuse to consider them political refugees? [The Last in Line](http://gbgm-umc.org/response/articles/haiti.html) \*\*"Haitians are and have been turned away from the United States in proportions far outnumbering people from other nations despite the fact they are fleeing conditions that should ensure approval of asylum for them: Long-standing human-rights abuses, which go back many years to the long and harsh rule of the Duvalier family; The 1991 military coup that overthrew Jean-Bertrand Aristide, the democratically elected president; Continuing and increasing chances for abuse by police in Haiti where the justice system and government are weak. Civilians do not trust the system to work so resort to vigilante actions. Ignoring these facts, the United States frequently labels Haitian refugees as economic entrants, a category of refugees that does not merit asylum under U.S. law. That is compounded by a belief that since reinstatement of Mr. Aristide, conditions in Haiti have improved." \*\* ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/57 "2006-01-09T19:26:02Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Yes John and why does the law grant Cubans asylum and not Haitians? By what criteria is this determined? > > The reason Cubans are admitted is purely political. The Cubans have a powerful voting block in Florida that protects them. Haitians are bring turned back at sea without having even a chance to apply fo political asylum. Haiti suffers from a far worse political situation than do Cubans. Why does the US refuse to consider them political refugees? Hey, I’m not saying the law about Cubans is a good law or even a fair law. But it’s purely political and anti-Communist. It has nothing to do with racism. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/58 "2006-01-09T19:34:21Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Hey, I’m not saying the law about Cubans is a good law or even a fair law. But it’s purely political and anti-Communist. It has nothing to do with racism. OK so what about the Haitians? I think it is a general consensus that human rights are nonexistent in Haiti. Bad enough that first US and then UN peacekeepers are there. Why aren’t Haitians considered political refugees? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/59 "2006-01-09T19:36:02Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > OK so what about the Haitians? I think it is a general consensus that human rights are nonexistent in Haiti. Bad enough that first US and then UN peacekeepers are there. > > Why aren’t Haitians considered political refugees? Because Haiti isn’t communist. And Haitians don’t have a powerful lobby in the US. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/60 "2006-01-09T19:41:33Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Because Haiti isn’t communist. And Haitians don’t have a powerful lobby in the US. Bullshit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806.md?page=4)