# "The New Apartheid" Wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806 "2006-01-06T22:28:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/121 "2006-01-11T21:27:10Z")
Apologies for the sloppy tag editing. ---
**Author:** ![BoringDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/122 "2006-01-11T21:45:58Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination defines racism as “the process of distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin.” Well if I define a lizard to be a cow, that “cow” can’t give any milk. If the ICotEoAFoRD used a messed up definition for racism, that doesn’t mean that I have to agree with them. While people do discriminate based on national origin, it isn’t racism unless they discriminate based on… race. ---
**Author:** ![BoringDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/123 "2006-01-11T21:49:02Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Don’t know about California/the Southwest, but the Mid-West is going through massive depopulation at the moment. So from that angle, there’s plenty of room to grow. (Of course, who knows if there are jobs to be had in the mid-West.) No jobs here. You Californians just keep moving to Colorado. It’s much nicer there. Some of us are quite happy with our massive depopulation. We put up with hot sweaty buggy summers and terrible blizzards and low wages so that we can have plenty of room in our parks. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/124 "2006-01-11T21:49:59Z")
> [@BoringDad](#): > > Well if I define a lizard to be a cow, that “cow” can’t give any milk. If the ICotEoAFoRD used a messed up definition for racism, that doesn’t mean that I have to agree with them. While people do discriminate based on national origin, it isn’t racism unless they discriminate based on… race. Fortunately your opinion isn’t what counts. The United States is a signatory of that agreement. Unfortunately, it appears that this is just another case of the US not honoring its agreements. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/125 "2006-01-11T22:13:44Z")
Add Michael Huffington to the list of criminals who hire illegal nannies. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/126 "2006-01-11T22:47:13Z")
CBEscapee: Evidently you’re not prepared to provide proof that the current US immigration policy is racist. Since you have been consistently dishonest in this matter, I am not prepared to accept your word that it is. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/127 "2006-01-11T22:52:45Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > CBEscapee: Evidently you’re not prepared to provide proof that the current US immigration policy is racist. Since you have been consistently dishonest in this matter, I am not prepared to accept your word that it is. What does speaking Spanish in Mexico have to do with this thread? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/128 "2006-01-11T22:56:10Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > CBEscapee: Evidently you’re not prepared to provide proof that the current US immigration policy is racist. Since you have been consistently dishonest in this matter, I am not prepared to accept your word that it is. That’s a pretty strong claim. Now let me see proof where I have been dishonest. You’ve been trying to steer this debate away from racism in the US by pointing a finger at Mexico. What is honest about that? ---
**Author:** ![BoringDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/129 "2006-01-11T23:16:06Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Fortunately your opinion isn’t what counts. The United States is a signatory of that agreement. Unfortunately, it appears that this is just another case of the US not honoring its agreements. Definition are suprmely important in a debate such as this. If your argument is that US immigration policy is racist because it discriminates based on national origin, then I think there is no debate. Almost everyone will agree that the US does discriminate based on national origin. But then you’ll have a heck of an argument trying to convince people that this is bad. I thin kthe US SHOULD discriminate based on country of origin. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/130 "2006-01-11T23:19:03Z")
> [@BoringDad](#): > > Definition are suprmely important in a debate such as this. If your argument is that US immigration policy is racist because it discriminates based on national origin, then I think there is no debate. Almost everyone will agree that the US does discriminate based on national origin. > > But then you’ll have a heck of an argument trying to convince people that this is bad. I thin kthe US SHOULD discriminate based on country of origin. The agreement the US government signed defines racism. If you don’t agree with that definition then contact your elected officials. THEY ratified it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/131 "2006-01-11T23:23:13Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Under American law, do criminals have any protection against abuse by the authorities? Criminals have no rights? People have the right to abuse criminals in the US? Show me where I have asserted that criminals do not have any protection against abuse by the authorities or admit your dishonesty. Show me where I have asserted that criminals have no rights or admit your dishonesty. Show me where I have asserted that people have the right to abuse criminals in the US or admit your dishonesty. > [@](#): > > According to a poster in the other thread you have made several referrals to, motor vehicle violations constitute criminal offenses. So by this reasoning the governor of California is a criminal? (that is NOT my opinion). That is irrelevant to the issue of illegally entering another country. BTW, the Governor of California is a citizen of the United States of America. Also FYI, the case to which you refer may be submitted to the county prosecutor’s office for a determination of charges to be made, if any, against the Governor. > [@](#): > > How many people hanging around these boards have used illegal drugs? That makes them criminals so how should they be treated? I’ve no idea except in my own case: I have never used illegal drugs. At any rate, the way they should be treated is whatever way the law mandates such treatment. That would include referral of charges by competent witnesses, if there are any. > [@](#): > > BTW Arnolds smoked pot and LIKED it!!! [http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry090803.asp](http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry090803.asp) > > This guy’s record keeps growing! Oops, don’t forgot the steroids! All of that is irrelevant to the issue of illegally entering another country. > [@](#): > > Then we have: > > Bernard Kerik, the nominee as the head Homeland Security, the very person most responsible for securing US borders, employing an illegal alien. > > Linda Chavez, the Bush nominee for Secretary of Labor employing an illegal alien. > > Zoe Baird, Clinton’s nominee for Attorney General, the top LE position in the US employing illegal aliens. > > Were they treated as criminals? They should be treated as the law mandates it. > [@](#): > > What a novelty, a politician lying, a president even. Let’s play a little game; what is the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear the following: > > “I am not a crook” > > “I did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky” That is irrelevant to the issue of illegal immigration. Well, Fox’s lies about illegal immigrants aren’t irrelevant. > [@](#): > > Show me a cite that Fox has called for a completely open border. A Google search for \<”fox calls for open border”\> returns exactly ONE hit. And when opening that link you’ll not find ONE quote of Fox calling for an open border. I’ve yet to find ONE quote attributed to Fox. Show me where I said that Fox called for completely open borders or admit your dishonesty. You obviously missed the point of my posting. > [@](#): > > > [@monty](#): > > > > His ridiculous “proof” of that assertion was to trot out some stuff about racism and capital punishment. > > Ridiculous? Is that what it is? Is that what you call “debating”? How about refuting anything in the article I posted? I quoted a source that proved de facto racism exists in the US. And the worst part is it is a major factor in who receives capital punishment. Yes, ridiculous. What I call debating is addressing the issues pertinent to the matter under discussion. Apparently, you call tossing out irrelevant stuff, and doing so dishonestly, as debating. Show me where I said that racism does not exist in the United States of America or admit your dishonesty. > [@](#): > > Now for ridiculous, how about your post #95 asking why Spanish is the main language in Mexico and thinking it has anything to do with this thread. I’d REALLY like to hear what the point of that was? Ah, so you obviously missed the point of that bit of information also. Spanish became the main language of Mexico because of the supposed cultural superiority of the Spanish conquerors. That’s a bit of history of Mexico, isn’t it? Didn’t you toss up some bits of history of the United States of America in your attempt to “prove” that the current policy on immigration is driven by racism? > [@](#): > > > [@monty](#): > > > > Actually, it’s merely your (ill-informed & unfounded) opinion that the United States of America is an inherently racist country. Time after time, you’ve been asked to provide proof of your assertion and all you’ve done is, essentially, repeat your charge. > > Ill-informed and unfounded? Is that why Google returns MILLIONS of hits regarding racism in the US? I can list literally thousands of sites about inherent racism in the US. Are you prepared to prove they are all ill-informed and unfounded? Yes, ill-informed and unfounded. You’ve constantly ignored requests for you to show that such racism is the driving factor, as you’ve asserted, in the current–i.e., not historical–immigration policy of the United States of America. You’ve asserted that racism is the driving factor. It is incumbent on **you** to prove your assertion. Or you can just admit to your dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/132 "2006-01-11T23:40:07Z")
How bizarre. You have obviously refused to open any of the several links I’ve posted demonstrating my position. You have rejected out of hand hard facts, opinions of Supreme Court justices and other notables. You have constantly tried to derail the debate by bringing up human rights violations in Mexico as if they had anything at all to do with racism in the US. You have added nothing but your highly subjective and prejudiced opinions. You twist and spin anything I post without adding one shred of evidence to refute anything contained in any of my cites. And you have the gall to call me dishonest? You win monty. I bow to your honesty. The USA is a bastion of freedom where all races and creeds enjoy equal protection by law under the watchful eye of the government of most perfect democratic country on the face of the earth. Such benevolence is to be admired. Adios hermano. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/133 "2006-01-11T23:40:18Z")
[Possibly the best place to address CBEscapee’s future postings on this matter.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6987131#post6987131) ---
**Author:** ![BoringDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/134 "2006-01-11T23:48:30Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > The agreement the US government signed defines racism. If you don’t agree with that definition then contact your elected officials. THEY ratified it. Now you are mixing issues. The way everyone else in this thread was basing their arguments was to debate whether US immigration policy was racist, and they were using the traditional dictionary sense of racism. I would say that there is much room for arguement in that. If you want to argue based on the expanded definition of “racism” from that treaty, I think that everyone would agree that US immigration policy is “racist.” It is obvious that the US does discriminate on national origin. And if you want to argue whether the US immigration policy racist breaks international treaties, that’s yet another issue, but not one we were debating. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/135 "2006-01-12T01:28:15Z")
Well, BoringDad, if one’s going to argue about treaties, one really should mention Mexico’s little treaty with the US recognizing our border with them. But that wouldn’t be polite, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/136 "2006-01-12T01:42:51Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > [Possibly the best place to address CBEscapee’s future postings on this matter.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6987131#post6987131) This shows completely what a true coward monty is. Where are the mods? ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/137 "2006-01-12T02:48:02Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > This shows completely what a true coward monty is. Where are the mods? Por que? You are the one that just broke the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/138 "2006-01-12T03:37:40Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] CBEscapee, it is perfectly fine to direct posters to a pit thread about them as long as you do it in a fairly civil manner, i.e. you can’t phrase it like, “link to Pit thread where we can trash this drooling moron.” Your personal issues with Monty, and his with you, should be dealt with in the Pit thread, and NOT in this thread anymore. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/139 "2006-01-12T20:29:36Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Did OJ kill his wife? Oh yeah? Prove it. You can’t prove it, he didn’t kill his [wife](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_J_Simpson). ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806/140 "2006-01-14T00:44:27Z")
**CBEscapee** : In post #99, you asked, > [@](#): > > In the United States, who is more likely to recieve the death penalty, a black that kills a white or a white that kills a black? When asked for a cite, you responded with post #102, which contained a lot of interesting information, _but never addressed the question directly_. You provide evidence that blacks are more likely to get the death penalty than whites; that people who kill whites are more likely to get the death penalty than people who kill blacks; and that a black accused of killing a white is more likely to get the death penalty than a white accused of killing a white. You never provided any evidence that a black killing a white is more likely to get the death penalty than a white killing a black. You also never compensated for what is largely believed to be the single largest contributing factor toward escaping the death penalty: net worth. If you compare rich whites killing blacks to rich blacks killing whites, what are the stats (how many rich folks of _any_ race get the death penalty)? How about comparing poor whites killing blacks to poor blacks killing whites? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-apartheid-wall/338806.md?page=8)