# The New Coke fiasco, and the current standing between Coke and Pepsi **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** soda-softdrinks\ **Created:** [December 30, 2021, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935 "2021-12-30T19:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/61 "2022-01-02T23:18:48Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > In my experience, restaurants are even less likely to have Dr. Pepper than either Coke _or_ Pepsi. The only restaurants around here that serve Mr. Pibb are Waffle House, Rally’s (a.k.a. Checkers), and I think an ice cream place called Shakes. I can’t remember the last time I went to a restaurant that had Pepsi and didn’t also have Dr. Pepper. Colorado, Arkansas, Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Mississippi, Missouri, and Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/62 "2022-01-02T23:43:03Z")
> [@Didi44](#): > > Being pedantic. Coca-Cola is the name of the Coca-Cola Bottling Company. Coke is a product of the Coca-Cola Bottling Company. Cite? Everything I can find, including [Coca-Cola’s own website](https://us.coca-cola.com/products/coca-cola/original), suggests that Coca-Cola is the full official name of the product. ---
**Author:** ![Didi44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@Didi44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didi44)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/63 "2022-01-02T23:51:47Z")
[https://ans-names.pitt.edu/ans/article/view/1437#:~:text=As%20a%20shortened%20form%20of,by%20a%20few%20people%20as](https://ans-names.pitt.edu/ans/article/view/1437#:~:text=As%20a%20shortened%20form%20of,by%20a%20few%20people%20as) [https://azrights.com/media/news-and-media/blog/intellectual-property/2010/06/how-safe-is-coca-colas-trade-mark-coke/](https://azrights.com/media/news-and-media/blog/intellectual-property/2010/06/how-safe-is-coca-colas-trade-mark-coke/) [https://ans-names.pitt.edu/ans/article/view/1437#:~:text=As%20a%20shortened%20form%20of,by%20a%20few%20people%20as](https://ans-names.pitt.edu/ans/article/view/1437#:~:text=As%20a%20shortened%20form%20of,by%20a%20few%20people%20as) AFAIK, New Coke was never New Coca Cola and Coca-Cola Classic was never Coke Classic. Also, note that Coca-Cola lists Diet Coke as a different product line from Coca-Cola/Coke [https://www.coca-colacompany.com/brands](https://www.coca-colacompany.com/brands) ---
**Author:** ![Didi44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@Didi44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didi44)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/64 "2022-01-03T00:11:14Z")
It’s been over 20 years since I stopped drinking Coke, but I recall that the canned product’s taste was different depending on where it was bottled. Part of the difference is fructose or other sweeteners vs cane sugar. Being from Hawaii, I preferred the cane sugar version over other areas versions. For dispenser versions, the local water also affected the taste. When we’d visit Las Vegas, I could smell and taste the chlorine in the water and even the canned product tasted different. I’m not alone: [https://www.google.com/search?q=does+coke+taste+the+same+everywhere&oq=does+coke+taste+the+same&aqs=chrome.0.0i512j69i57j0i22i30l8.9897j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8](https://www.google.com/search?q=does+coke+taste+the+same+everywhere&oq=does+coke+taste+the+same&aqs=chrome.0.0i512j69i57j0i22i30l8.9897j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/65 "2022-01-03T00:21:32Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The only restaurants around here that serve Mr. Pibb are Waffle House, Rally’s (a.k.a. Checkers), and I think an ice cream place called Shakes. I can’t remember the last time I went to a restaurant that had Pepsi and didn’t also have Dr. Pepper. Disclosure: I used to have the parent company of Dr Pepper as a client (it was Cadbury Schweppes at the time; it’s now Keurig Dr Pepper). FWIW, in many parts of the U.S., Keurig Dr Pepper’s brands (Dr Pepper, 7 Up, Sunkist, Canada Dry, etc.) are bottled and distributed by either the local Coca-Cola bottler, or the local PepsiCo bottler. If a restaurant offers both Coke and Dr Pepper, it’s almost undoubtedly in a region where Coca-Cola distributes it; likewise, if a restaurant offers Pepsi and Dr Pepper, then PepsiCo is probably the Dr Pepper distributor in that area. Mr. Pibb, of course, is Coca-Cola’s version of a Dr Pepper-like soda, and you’re probably more likely to see it in a restaurant if your local Coca-Cola bottler doesn’t distribute Dr Pepper. My educated guess would be that, in your area, PepsiCo is distributing Dr Pepper. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/66 "2022-01-03T00:33:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Pepsi really does taste better, but Coke wasn’t bound to lose in the long run, because tasting better isn’t the criterion people use when choosing a drink. Chronos nailed it in one. People preferred the taste of Pepsi to Coke. People preferred the taste of New Coke to Coke. Coke drinkers preferred Coke because it was Coca-Cola. ---
**Author:** ![Slight\_Off\_Hand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Slight\_Off\_Hand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slight_Off_Hand)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/67 "2022-01-04T01:14:57Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/BZowzqU9P4Q/hqdefault.jpg "Robot Chicken - Is Pepsi okay?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZowzqU9P4Q) I’ve wanted to do this several times but I contain myself. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2022, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/68 "2022-01-04T04:04:23Z")
> [@JohnnyEcks](#): > > First, I’ve heard that a standard clause of Coke’s exclusive contract with big vendors allowed them to renegotiate if coke ever failed to be the best selling cola- a nice sounding but meaningless feature when coke was unchallenged. > [@Didi44](#): > > Being pedantic. Coca-Cola is the name of the Coca-Cola Bottling Company. Coke is a product of the Coca-Cola Bottling Company. Neither of these are correct, to my knowledge. As I said above, the Coca-Cola parent company has never sold the product you know as Coke. From the beginning it has only sold Coke syrup. At first this was just to fountains, and around 1899 also to bottlers. The bottlers eventually became huge, but most were never actually part of Coke. Think of them as fast food franchises. A franchised McDonald’s only sells McDonald’s products but the franchise belongs to the individual and is not part of the McDonald’s parent company, although some outlets actually are. Nor was there ever such a clause in the bottler’s contracts. What happened was more nuanced, and I believe extremely important to New Coke. (I’m taking the story from Mark Pendergrast’s definitive _For God, Country and Coca-Cola_.) In 1982 Coke introduced diet Coke (small-d, get it?). It was a huge success. But the bottler’s contract specified what Coke syrup was, something that contained 5.32 pounds of sugar in the formula. So they argued that this wasn’t Coke, yet the company actually charged them more for a product that cost them less. This inaugurated a 10-year legal battle and exacerbated the existing ill-will between the groups. (Lots of history excluded.) Reading between the lines, Coke saw New Coke as a way of enforcing their control over the bottlers, who had no say in any new products. Yet the bottlers, rather than the parent company, were the ones dealing directly with buyers. They were blindsided yet got the brunt of the backlash. Additionally, somehow, for all the positive testing, nobody thought to ask the public about eliminating old Coke rather than adding a new flavor. I’m guessing that the bottlers were hugely influential in the decision to bring back Coke, for two reasons, one not at all obvious. The obvious one was relaying the pressure they were getting. The non-obvious one was that Coke didn’t immediately take New Coke off the market. They kept it and also brought back Coke as Classic Coke. Why? Because then they could claim this was a new product not covered by the old product and charge more for it. Yeah, right. It wasn’t until the next April that they killed off New Coke entirely. By that time, they had lost one court case to the bottlers. (Only seven more years to go. Coke would keep losing in court, but found a way to menace the bottlers to cave.) Coke was riding a sugar high, having its stock double from 1981-1985, in an era when that never happened. Corporate hubris caused the fiasco, but it wasn’t as stupid or rash a decision as it looks in hindsight. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/69 "2022-01-07T04:26:22Z")
> [@Didi44](#): > > Being pedantic. Coca-Cola is the name of the Coca-Cola Bottling Company. Coke is a product of the Coca-Cola Bottling Company. You’d better let the people on the company’s official web site know that. Because they call it Coca-Cola. > **[Coca-Cola Original](https://us.coca-cola.com/products/coca-cola/original)** > > Sit back and enjoy the crisp, delicious taste of a Coca-Cola® Soft Drink. Bring home the refreshing taste of Coca-Cola, available for purchase online or in stores. ---
**Author:** ![Didi44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@Didi44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didi44)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/70 "2022-01-07T04:37:02Z")
I’m speaking to those who use Coke as a reference to the company, Coca Cola Bottling. “Who makes Coca Cola?” “Coke!” "Who makes Diet Coke? “Coke!” Also, as I posted above, AFAIK, New Coke was never New Coca Cola and Diet Coke is referenced as that on their website, not Diet Coca Cola. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/71 "2022-01-07T04:57:27Z")
> [@Didi44](#): > > I’m speaking to those who use Coke as a reference to the company, Coca Cola Bottling. What’s wrong with that? It’s a nickname of the company. Nicknames aren’t wrong, they’re nicknames. You stated that Coca-Cola is not a product of the company, that it’s the name of the company, and they sell a product called “Coke”. Which is inaccurate. They do not sell a product called Coke. They sell a product called Coca-Cola. > [@Didi44](#): > > Also, as I posted above, AFAIK, New Coke was never New Coca Cola and Diet Coke is referenced as that on their website, not Diet Coca Cola. Sure, but none of those are called Coke. This is the Straight Dope Message Board. If you’re gonna be pedantic, you’d best be right. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2022, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/72 "2022-01-07T18:26:49Z")
> [@Didi44](#): > > I’m speaking to those who use Coke as a reference to the company, Coca Cola Bottling Once again, the parent company is named The Coca-Cola Company. All the firms named [Coca-Cola Bottling Company](https://www.google.com/search?q=coca+cola+bottling+company&newwindow=1&bih=1973&biw=1206&hl=en&sxsrf=AOaemvILmuEJyZHDZik4Zxv6BuFWLehTAA%3A1641579803743&ei=G4XYYaDmLLSnptQP1rGRkAo&gs_ssp=eJzj4tZP1zcsM0pPK8ouM2C0UjWosLBMMUsxSjRNSjNPS0s0NLYyqDA3tzBITEk2MjM3NDBNNUvzkkrOT05USM7PSVRIyi8pycnMSwfycgsS8yoBw-sZPA&oq=Coca+Cola+Bottling&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADILCC4QgAQQxwEQrwEyCwguEIAEEMcBEKMCMgUIABCABDIICAAQgAQQyQMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDILCC4QgAQQxwEQ0QMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQ6BwgAEEcQsAM6CAgAEIAEELADOgkIABCwAxAIEB5KBQg8EgExSgQIQRgASgQIRhgAUOkEWOkEYJwoaAFwAngAgAF-iAF-kgEDMC4xmAEAoAECoAEByAEKwAEB&sclient=gws-wi) (or Corporation) are local bottlers, not the parent company. That’s a huge distinction, legally, financially, control, and every other way. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/73 "2022-01-08T12:42:11Z")
Is Royal Crown Cola (“RC”) a factor anywhere? Now owned by Dr. Pepper (in the US), it had 4-5% of all US soft drink sales in the 1980’s. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/74 "2022-01-08T13:23:55Z")
I have never seen RC Cola in any stores in the last 20 years, and none of my employers going back to the mid 1990s have ever carried it. There are some regional chains in the south that might still carry it, but in the American market it’s been on life support for many, many years. I just checked Publix, Rouse’s and HEB. None of them seem to carry it now, so it might be even more “niche” than I thought. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/75 "2022-01-08T13:28:35Z")
There’s a specialty coffee shop I go to. The previous owner would sometimes stock RC cola. I think it was just his own favorite ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/76 "2022-01-08T14:43:08Z")
Vons and other major grocery stores in California carry RC. I haven’t seen it “on tap” in a restaurant in twenty years though. I’d take RC over Coke or Pepsi if given the choice. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/77 "2022-01-08T14:49:09Z")
I occasionally see it in gas stations. As I understand it, in the US it is owned by the same company that owns Dr Pepper, so I imagine that any store that carries Dr Pepper would probably have the option of carrying RC. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/78 "2022-01-08T14:52:21Z")
I sometimes see RC in Walgreens stores. It’s usually in the dollar-per-two-liter section with the store brands. Which is good, because it’s my favorite cola, too. I’ve never seen it on tap anywhere, though. @Didi44, “Coke” is not the official name for anything, company nor beverage. It is, however, a common nickname for both the Coca-Cola Company and their flagship product. It makes no sense to object to its use for one but not the other. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/79 "2022-01-08T18:07:33Z")
I’d say this is going too far. It may have started as a nickname, but it’s a name commonly used by the company itself in official corporate communication such as advertising, it is claimed as a trademark. I’d say it’s just as official as the full name. Regarding RC: I have fond memories of Me and My RC ads from my childhood, but when I’ve tasted it recently I found it worse than Pepsi. I’m firmly a Coca-Cola partisan. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935/80 "2022-01-08T19:36:02Z")
RC owed a lot of its success in the 1960s by getting on the diet soda bandwagon early with Diet Rite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-coke-fiasco-and-the-current-standing-between-coke-and-pepsi/956935.md?page=3)