# The New Haven Firefighter Case **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268 "2009-05-31T16:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/181 "2009-06-05T14:00:25Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > ☹ > > What would be the pathways for all to succeed? Should there be a caste system? I do not want to debate with you, I sincerely want to understand your point-of-view. If we want to have reasonably equal representation by groups who seem to want to be considered as a group–and as an example, the group self-described as blacks in America–we have to set group-based AA quotas. We can’t get there by providing equal opportunity, because equal opportunity does not produce equal outcomes. As the thread above shows, the reason for this is debated endlessly in circles, with some of us holding that the reason for this immutability of disparate results is underlying genetic differences at a group level, and some of us holding that it is simply disparate nurturing–environmental influences–of some type. I hold that the primary explanation for performance differences between the average of all blacks and the average of all whites–and pretty much any two population groups–is genetic and therefore permanently immutable until we manage to mix our gene pools a good deal more thoroughly. (I note that even within the phenotypically “white” population, the differences among intra-white groups with varying levels of societal success are still largely underpinned by genetic differences, but it is not a sensitive issue because they look more phenotypically the same.) High-income, high-academically-performing and high-sports-performing groups are genetically blessed with a different maximum potential than are low-income, low-academically-performing and low-sports-performing groups. In simple terms, smart and athletic groups succeed more often than less-smart and less athletic groups in our society, and the same basic rank-ordering results across all populations. The dilemma with which we are faced is that some groups self-identify–and are identified by society–into a population and wish to be considered as members of that group, and the history of this country has created grave injustices toward some of those populations, most notably our black population. I believe that, over the next couple of decades, we’ll see a shift away from color-based self- and societal-identification. We’ll see successful and professional blacks, for instance, identify with that class more than an appearance-based classification. Until that happens, though, we are stuck with a disparate distribution of color/race-based populations. I see no workable remedy for this besides race-based AA quotas. We can argue ad nauseum if this is fair or not; life is unfair. But because I think there is a greater good for a society in which large-scale self-identifying populations have broad representation at all success tiers possible, and because I think those same self-identifying populations are differently enabled at a genetic level, we won’t get to more mixed society without a deliberate and specific effort to overcome what mother nature has screwed up. We have done this for 40 years by law and by back-door machinations. We do it every day on an ongoing basis across educational institutions and at the level of corporate employment. While I am more blunt than many of my colleagues about the “real” reason we need AA, I basically don’t care whether someone thinks the real reason is historical injustice and its consequence or genetic differences. The greatest good in my mind, for right now, is a diverse society, as free as possible from the tremendous strain incurred by a perception of unfairness, even if the reasoning underlying the cause for the disparate distribution is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/182 "2009-06-29T17:10:40Z")
[The Supreme Court ruled for the firefighters, 5-4.](http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/29/supreme.court.discrimination/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/183 "2009-06-29T17:19:57Z")
And rightly so. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/184 "2009-06-29T17:20:05Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > [The Supreme Court ruled for the firefighters, 5-4.](http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/29/supreme.court.discrimination/index.html) Posts claiming this discredits Sotomayor in 3…2…1… ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/185 "2009-06-29T17:41:51Z")
Hmm, so Kennedy says, in effect, you just can’t do what Mayor DeStefano did to Frank Ricci – yank the rug out from under him after he took the test because you didn’t like the racial results – at least not without a “strong-basis-in-evidence” that you’d lose a minority plaintiff’s disparate impact discrimination lawsuit. And if the facts resemble the facts in New Haven, Kennedy announces, then this here Supreme Court says you won’t lose that lawsuit; so don’t throw Ricci’s test results out. Capisce? (Warning: This here Supreme Court likely to be replaced by a more Obamaesque Supreme Court in not-too-distant future.) The real question is why this modest and perfectly reasonable response to an egregious injustice was merely 5-4 rather than 9-0? Still, I can see how Ginsburg could be sore about this. Kennedy is being ingenuous by reading the 1991 Civil Rights Act naively. After all, the Democratic majority that passed the 1991 Civil Rights Act enshrining Griggs’ disparate impact theory may have “declaimed” racial preferences in public, but the whole _point_ of the legislation was to provide racial preferences by tipping the balance between Type I and Type II errors in favor of legally preferred groups. > [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Posts claiming this discredits Sotomayor in 3…2…1… Well, your preemption says more than any critics ever could. It would be interesting to see if the GOP has the balls to grill the Wise Latina Woman on an issue when she is clearly holds a minority opinion to the rest of the country, but I doubt they will. It would look bad. But maybe they’ll call Mayor DeStefano as a witness to beat up on him over the injustice he personally did to Frank Ricci, an injustice upheld, fortunately only temporarily, by Judge Sotomayor. If they are too sensitive to ask tough questions of the Wise Latina, they can ask them of the not so wise white guy. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/186 "2009-06-29T18:02:24Z")
Here’s a description of how the test was created and administered, from the Court’s opinion: > [@](#): > > After reviewing bids from various consultants, the City hired Industrial/Organizational Solutions, Inc. (IOS) todevelop and administer the examinations, at a cost to theCity of $100,000. IOS is an Illinois company that special-izes in designing entry-level and promotional examina-tions for fire and police departments. In order to fit the examinations to the New Haven Department, IOS began the test-design process by performing job analyses to identify the tasks, knowledge, skills, and abilities that are essential for the lieutenant and captain positions. IOS representatives interviewed incumbent captains and lieutenants and their supervisors. They rode with and observed other on-duty officers. Using information fromthose interviews and ride-alongs, IOS wrote job-analysisquestionnaires and administered them to most of the incumbent battalion chiefs, captains, and lieutenants inthe Department. At every stage of the job analyses, IOS, by deliberate choice, oversampled minority firefighters toensure that the results—which IOS would use to develop the examinations—would not unintentionally favor white candidates. > > With the job-analysis information in hand, IOS devel-oped the written examinations to measure the candidates’job-related knowledge. For each test, IOS compiled a listof training manuals, Department procedures, and other materials to use as sources for the test questions. IOS presented the proposed sources to the New Haven firechief and assistant fire chief for their approval. Then, using the approved sources, IOS drafted a multiple-choicetest for each position. Each test had 100 questions, as required by CSB rules, and was written below a 10th-grade reading level. After IOS prepared the tests, the Cityopened a 3-month study period. It gave candidates a listthat identified the source material for the questions, in-cluding the specific chapters from which the questions were taken. > > IOS developed the oral examinations as well. These concentrated on job skills and abilities. Using the job-analysis information, IOS wrote hypothetical situations to test incident-command skills, firefighting tactics, interper-sonal skills, leadership, and management ability, among other things. Candidates would be presented with these hypotheticals and asked to respond before a panel of three assessors. > > IOS assembled a pool of 30 assessors who were superior in rank to the positions being tested. At the City’s insis-tence (because of controversy surrounding previous ex-aminations), all the assessors came from outside Connecti-cut. IOS submitted the assessors’ resumes to City officials for approval. They were battalion chiefs, assistant chiefs,and chiefs from departments of similar sizes to New Ha-ven’s throughout the country. Sixty-six percent of the panelists were minorities, and each of the nine three-member assessment panels contained two minority mem-bers. IOS trained the panelists for several hours on the day before it administered the examinations, teaching them how to score the candidates’ responses consistently using checklists of desired criteria. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/187 "2009-06-29T18:36:20Z")
The Supreme Court decision was 5 to 4. She is barely out of step with a conservative Supreme Court, let alone the public. To imply she is out of step with the country is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/188 "2009-06-29T18:49:36Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Well, your preemption says more than any critics ever could. It would be interesting to see if the GOP has the balls to grill the Wise Latina Woman on an issue when she is clearly holds a minority opinion to the rest of the country, but I doubt they will. It would look bad. But maybe they’ll call Mayor DeStefano as a witness to beat up on him over the injustice he personally did to Frank Ricci, an injustice upheld, fortunately only temporarily, by Judge Sotomayor. If they are too sensitive to ask tough questions of the Wise Latina, they can ask them of the not so wise white guy. So judges are supposed to rule by public opinion? And Sotomayor was one of three judges who ruled on the case. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/189 "2009-06-29T19:52:04Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Warning: This here Supreme Court likely to be replaced by a more Obamaesque Supreme Court in not-too-distant future. Why - is one of the Justices in today’s majority about to retire? Scalia and Kennedy turn 73 this year, but I haven’t heard that either of them are having health problems. And Thomas, Alito, and Roberts are 12-18 years younger. The inside scoop, please! > [@](#): > > The real question is why this modest and perfectly reasonable response to an egregious injustice was merely 5-4 rather than 9-0? You’re just reading the wrong wingnuts - a number of them are saying this was a 9-0 stomping of Sotomayor. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/190 "2009-06-29T21:12:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > If they have lower standards on the MCATs for black Doctors then why should I trust black doctors? I think in both medicine and the law, your training counts for more than your IQ. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/191 "2009-06-29T21:15:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes fair enough. I am thinking if I am in a situation where I don’t have access to a referral. Say I just moved to a new town or something. > > It wouldn’t in the scenario you’ve outlined, but of all the Doctors I’ve seen, of all the Doctors I’ve met with friends and family, I have never met a black Doctor. I know two and they both serve in “underserved urban communities” ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/192 "2009-06-29T21:20:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think in both medicine and the law, your training counts for more than your IQ. Is there a reason for thinking that non-Asian minorities systematically perform _better_ on training, so as to cancel out their disadvantage on quantifiable skills? Because that’s the only way the preferential treatment is not racist. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/193 "2009-06-29T21:37:11Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **you with the face** Why is it so ridiculous to think that if they have lower standards for the MCAT that they don’t have lower standards across the board? Nobody flunks out of medical school. Something like 99% of medical students graduate. They all take the same medical board exam and they all have to pass, its not graded on a curve. After that point its about experience. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/194 "2009-06-29T21:46:54Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Do you have any genetic proof of this, or is it just what you wish was the case? I think you make too much of the genetic differences between races. I’m not saying that there isn’t something to this whole genetics thing. The children of tall parents tend to be tall and the children of smart parents tend to be smart but I don’t believe that environment plays as trivial a role as some people like to believe. In fact I think environment can play a significant enough role to more than erase the effects of genetic advantage. The average North Korean is like a foot shorter than the average South Korean. The average North Korean has significantly lower IQ scores than the average South Korean (we are basing this on the IQ of North Korean defectors so there may be some form of adverse selection). Its been less than 60 years since Korea was split in half. If West Africans have such great twitch reflex then why are South Korean the best twitch video game players in the world, much much better than West Africans. Why are South Korean the best break dancers in the world, much much better than West Africans? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/195 "2009-06-29T21:58:52Z")
"A fundamental problem with studies of IQ-test results is that "nobody really knows what intelligence is,’ says psychometrician Peter H. Schonemann of Purdue University in West Lafayette, Ind. " This makes me think that this whole IQ debate is more than just a bunch of people think supply side eocnomics works because it conforms to their world view. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/196 "2009-06-29T22:03:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Nobody flunks out of medical school. Something like 99% of medical students graduate. They all take the same medical board exam and they all have to pass, its not graded on a curve. After that point its about experience. Does that show that that everyone’s equally qualified, or does it show that after the initial race-normed screen there’s very little else that you can use to separate the wheat from the chaff? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/197 "2009-06-29T22:08:24Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Is there a reason for thinking that non-Asian minorities systematically perform _better_ on training, so as to cancel out their disadvantage on quantifiable skills? Because that’s the only way the preferential treatment is not racist. Are you asking if the black student manages to keep up with their white counterparts in medical school? I dunno but with three doctors in the family and having discussed this issue in the past, the differences are not noticable if they exist and they are certainly not as dramatic as the MCAT score disparity would imply. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/198 "2009-06-29T22:36:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Nobody flunks out of medical school. Something like 99% of medical students graduate. They all take the same medical board exam and they all have to pass, its not graded on a curve. After that point its about experience. About [81% graduate within 4 years and 96% within 10 years](http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/aibissues/aibvol7_no2.pdf), but African Ameican students have lowest rate of graduation. Not sure how this affects the arguments. I think this is a tough issue. Clearly Blacks and some other minorities face hurdles, and it is to society’s benefit to close the gap in opportunity and achievment, but is it fair to the white fire fighters to deny them promotions when they took and passed the requirements? I grew up white and poor and liked standardized tests becuase they allowed me to compete using objective standards rather than having teachers judge me based on my clothes, religion, who my parents were, etc. I resented the fact that [Senator Brooke’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Brooke)children would get an advantage in college admission over me. If we continue affirmative action I think it should be based on income, whether your parents attended college, if you grew up in a disadvantaged neighborhood, etc. The effect would be the same, but you wouldn’t be pitting races against each other. For all we know, some of the white fire fighters that passed the test and were denied promotion might have faced hurdles in their life equivalent to some of the minority candidates. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/199 "2009-06-29T22:40:49Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > For all we know, some of the white fire fighters that passed the test and were denied promotion might have faced hurdles in their life equivalent to some of the minority candidates. That’s just crazy talk. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/200 "2009-06-30T03:48:42Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > And what will you do if they do not agree with you? Wait for them to come to their senses, I guess. Looks like it will have to be another time, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268.md?page=11)