# The New Haven Firefighter Case

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [May 31, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268 "2009-05-31T16:52:11Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 7

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**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/121 "2009-06-03T03:27:55Z")

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> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> It’s a common comeback for folks to point out the over-representation of Jews in the NBA in the remote past. The inference they are hoping will be drawn is apparently that it’s sort of the blacks’ turn now in the same way it was someone else’s turn in the past, and will perhaps be the Inuits’ turn in the future. This is bogus, and I’m pretty sure you know it is.

Why is it bogus? Even within the NBA, in the last 15 years, there has been a large influx of foreign-born players, many from countries like Serbia and Croatia. How do you explain that?

Black representation in boxing and [baseball](http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/04/12/on_blacks_and_baseball/) are two other examples.

> [@](#):
>
> Less than 10 percent of Major League Baseball players today are black Americans, down from 27 percent in 1975.

Baseball players make even more than basketball players, and there are more of them. There is obviously more of an incentive for Blacks to play the game today than there was in 1975. What genetic changes have happened since then? If it’s not genetic, what is it?

> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> There is an enormous difference between today’s NBA, which is open to all comers who wish to try and get there, and has such enormous reward attached to it that all comers have it as their first choice of career if they have the potential, and the NBA of the 40’s, which was closed to blacks and didn’t have quite the same panache. You know that. And you know it’s silly to pretend the only reason blacks are so over-represented in the NBA is “cultural.” C’mon…give me a break. The culture of those millions of white boys trying from age 6 to get to the pros is somehow outweighed by the black culture?

Is it different, but that doesn’t give any credence to your dubious contentions

> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> Whites have every conceivable advantage–coaching; money; time; nuclear families; medical care; facilities; camps; socially tighter networks; rides to games…you don’t need the list. It’s just inane to pretend the inferiority of whites (as a group average, remember) is anything but an inferior maximum potential. And genes determine that maximum potential.

Which is why they realize that trying to play in the NBA isn’t rational. All those advantages means they also have far more options with a higher expected rate of return. What would have, a one in a million chance to play in the NBA, or a one in 20 thousand chance to be a doctor like you dad? Most people with options don’t have that burning desire to dedicate themselves to a sport at the detriment of everything else in their lives.

> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> That a different ethnic group was over-represented in the past when the group with the highest potential was excluded from competing is meaningless. And if you need one more proof, take a look at some old basketball films and figure out for yourself who would kick whose a$$.

But this notion of highest potential is something you just pulled out of your ass. How do you explain the fact that Blacks are not represented in the same proportion in baseball? How do you explain the fact that Blacks are more likely to be overweight and obese too? Is that genetic too? Super-athleticism and morbid obesity is kinda of a weird combination isn’t it?

> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> This thread is about the New Haven decision, and I have already sidetracked it too far into genetics and racial differences, I’m afraid.

Fair enough. But I would still like to hear how an appeals court judge, like Sotomayor, could have justified the opposite decision in this case.

> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> There are lots of threads discussing that subject, with few minds changed in them. It’s true that you won’t find many academics publicly in favor of my position. It would be career suicide and in general is anathema to our sense of fairness anyway, so the reason for black/white disparities will remain “elusive” for most of you.

Bullshit. Dubya just raised $100 million for his fucking presidential library. PETA raises a ton of money every year as do crazy people like Lyndon LaRouch. People will donate money to damn near anything. There are plenty of people who believe the nonsense you do that would fund research into such things. They don’t do it because they know that even pinning down what “race” is would be nearly impossible. They trade in pseudoscience, intuition, and fallacies. They won’t ever try to test their theories because they know they cannot stand up to rigorous scientific scrutiny, and because they decided that anecdotes are as good as data.

> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> What you will find is that if you correct for income (children of rich blacks underperform children of poor whites on the SAT), culture (blacks adopted by whites underperform their white counterparts), opportunity (see the New Haven case and thousands of others), the gap is never closed. Draw your own conclusions. One by one the historic excuses are falling away.

But they have closed. See [here](http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-06-24-no-child_N.htm) and [here](http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Racial+IQ+gap+narrows:+blacks+gain+4+to+7+points+on+whites-a0151188396). Furthermore, you ignore the fact that rich Black kids are still treated as Black kids regardless of their wealth. How many poor White kids do you know that would become Black if it meant they could grow up upper-middle class? The general consensus is that being Black is a greater burden in most circumstances.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/122 "2009-06-03T03:49:57Z")

</div>

> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> The performance difference for blacks and whites persists into the post-medical school licensing exams (called the USMLE) and into the Specialty Board exams (these are usually 3-7 years post medical school). So ten to fifteen years out from entering college, with identical training over the prior ten to fifteen years, we still see a disparity on medical exams.

Do you have a cite for that?

> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> There aren’t any effective ways to decide who is misdiagnosing and who is not; who is managing patients better than others. All we can say is who is able to show a better mastery of the material. And of course testing is not a sufficient criterion to establish a good doctor; the world is full of stupid or lazy clinicians who are good at tests.

We can’t effectively decide who is misdiagnosing and who or not, but we can tell who is genetically inferior by looking at them? :dubious: We can’t tell who is managing their patients better, but we can tell that a guy who does better on his MCATs will have a better mastery of the material, and/or will be a better doctor?

> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> At issue is not so much whether tests are good or bad predictors (although most of us have a better comfort level if our doctor was in the 99th instead of the 9th percentile) but why there is a difference.

But that is the case when those tests are given on that basis.

> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> If all groups have equal potential, on average, and all groups have equal opportunity to learn exactly the same material, why is there any group-based performance disparity at all?

Because people don’t have the same opportunity to learn exactly the same material. Some people, like the Frank Ricci have six months and $1000, others have nothing. By your logic all, doctors with equal resumes and test scores should make the same diagnoses. Why don’t they?

I go back to the cite about the role societal expectations have in our behavior. How do you reconcile the fact that people change the way the walk when they are around old people, with your understanding of genetics? Or that people don’t do as well on tests when they are primed with the fact that they are expected to do poorly?

> [@mswas](#):
>
> Well as of yet no one has addressed my concern that the lowered standards are not applied uniformly throughout the medical school.

It’s not a valid concern so long as it doesn’t result in less competent physicians.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Staale\_Nordlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Staale\_Nordlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staale_Nordlie)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/123 "2009-06-03T05:08:19Z")

</div>

There’s an article on race and IQ here: [Liberal&nbsp;Creationism](http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/entry/2178123/) (4 parts). It seems like a good introduction to the subject.

* * *

Anyway, all this talk about genetics is a red herring.

If doing well on a test like this is a useful predictor of future job performance (and I’m sure it is) then it doesn’t matter _why_ someone did well. Throwing away the test and not hiring the best qualified candidates because you were unhappy with the color of their skin is wrong and (hopefully) illegal.

If the test is not useful for anything then I don’t see how the underlying cause of any racial disparity matters, morally or legally.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/124 "2009-06-03T05:38:13Z")

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Originally Posted by \*\*Chief Pedant \*\*  
“_The performance difference for blacks and whites persists into the post-medical school licensing exams (called the USMLE) and into the Specialty Board exams (these are usually 3-7 years post medical school). So ten to fifteen years out from entering college, with identical training over the prior ten to fifteen years, we still see a disparity on medical exams._”

> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> Do you have a cite for that?

As you may be aware, all institutions of higher learning are quite protective of their admission preferences, race-based data and any data which show obvious disparities by group. They are sensitive to the potential misuse of such information by the hate-mongering crowd, and frankly are uninterested in what Mr Holden apparently wants: an honest dialogue on race instead of being cowardly about it.

Here are a few cites for some of the assertions I’ve made:

\*\*Children of wealthy (\>100k/yr) underperform children of poor (\<10k/yr) whites on the SAT: \*\* [The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test](http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html) the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education)

\*"But there is a major flaw in the thesis that income differences explain the racial gap. Consider these three observable facts from The College Board’s 2005 data on the SAT:

• Whites from families with incomes of less than $10,000 had a mean SAT score of 993. This is 129 points higher than the national mean for all blacks.

• Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and $100,000.

• Blacks from families with incomes of more than $100,000 had a mean SAT score that was 85 points below the mean score for whites from all income levels, 139 points below the mean score of whites from families at the same income level, and 10 points below the average score of white students from families whose income was less than $10,000. "\*

**Black USMLE scores are lower than whites:** [http://journals.lww.com/academicmedicine/Fulltext/2001/12000/Racial\_Bias\_in\_Using\_USMLE\_Step\_1\_Scores\_to\_Grant.21.aspx](http://journals.lww.com/academicmedicine/Fulltext/2001/12000/Racial_Bias_in_Using_USMLE_Step_1_Scores_to_Grant.21.aspx)

"Substantial differences in test performances across racial groups on the National Board of Medical Examiners’ (NBME) examinations, the USMLE’s predecessor, were previously reported.5 In 1988, the overall mean score on NBME Part I was 480; however, African-American students had mean scores that were 100-120 points lower than those for white students. Only limited data on USMLE Step 1 performances by racial groups have been reported. However, analysis of first-time takers (n = 11,279) of the USMLE Step 1 in June 1994 revealed that the mean score for white students was 210, while the mean score for African-American students was 187.2.

Since the USMLE Step 1 scores of African-American medical students have been shown to be lower than those of their white counterparts…"

**Black specialty exam scores are lower than whites:** This is the most difficult area to give you a specific cite because of the way medical training happens. During a residency, underperformers drop out of (or are dropped) so that by the time of specialty certification, the trainees actually sitting for the boards are a residual group of the original starters. In general, it’s been found that those who do poorly on the USMLE (of any color) do poorly on specialty board examinations down the road. Here’s a quote from a study on predictive value of the USMLE by the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery: [http://www.ejbjs.org/cgi/content/extract/86/5/1092](http://www.ejbjs.org/cgi/content/extract/86/5/1092)

_“Consequently, the  
relative risk of failing the ABOS Part-I  
examination for students with USMLE  
Step-I scores below 204 was 2.63 (95%  
confidence interval, 0.48 to 14.38) times  
that of students scoring above 204.”_

It’s a pretty good rule of thumb in higher academics that those who performed marginally on written exams did so all their lives, before, during and after their college years.

Back to the NBA and those Croatians and Serbians: I’d say there’s a population gene pool there somewhere with a high concentration of folks with a superior potential for basketball. Of course it could be that the Mbuti just haven’t been told of the NBA’s fame and fortune yet…

And no, we don’t decide if someone is genetically inferior by looking at them. We decide if whole groups have disparate potential that is genetically conferred by testing whole groups while controlling for variables. The genetic variability within the human species renders prediction for a given individual a shaky proposition at best. That we group people at all is a shame, but of course the dilemma is that any group which cries “foul” for its self-described grouping opens itself to an examination of its group performance to determine whether it has been fouled or has simply–as a group–underperformed. If the whites in this country rose up and cried “foul” over their under-representation in the NBA, the response would not be sympathy, but laughter.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/125 "2009-06-03T12:55:16Z")

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> [@Blake](#):
>
> Yes, it’s not just plausible but it happens.
> 
> I’m in Australia ATM and will be in India shortly next month. In both countries women in technology courses at university are “coddled” in the sense that there are female-only mentoring programs available, female only training available, female only resources available (for example at my current university the equity organisation has new laptop computers available for long term loan that are available only to women). I should add that similar “coddling” is available for black students. [See here](http://www.wit.org.au/default.asp?PageID=57&n=Program+Overview) for a starting point.

Do you have cites to show this “coddling” programs exclude males? It’s easy to make that assumption, but it’s far from a given.

I went to an engineering undergrad and yes, there were tutorial programs that were managed by the minority office. But you know what? There was nothing preventing white students from taking advantage of these services. Many did, in fact.

Tutoring, by the way, is not the same thing as applying a different grading or testing systems to blacks or other minorities. It’s one-on-one _teaching_, and is no more coddling than is having a professor invite his students to get extra help during office hours. At end-game, the students are still held to the same standards.

> [@](#):
>
> And I’ve been quite shocked to see how far some of this goes. I know of one case where the mentoring program involved the mentor getting her research assistant to completely re-write an assignment.

This sounds like an isolated incident, not a systematic, institutionalized process. I can just as easy fire off an anecdote or two about some rich white kid who got some underserved extra credit at one point in time because he whined enough, but that doesn’t mean that schools have policies in place that “coddle” white students.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/126 "2009-06-03T13:18:45Z")

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> [@Blake](#):
>
> Does this program result in “coddling”? I have no idea, but its certainly not totally implausible to think that it could. For that matter **mswas** could argue that enabling black residents and students to interact with practicing physicians when white students have no such program is coddling all by itself.

Again, I’m getting that “are you whooshing me?” feeling. [Mentoring](http://www.acog.org/departments/dept_notice.cfm?recno=43&bulletin=3219) [programs](http://dms.dartmouth.edu/alumni/mentoring.shtml) [are](http://fmignet.aafp.org/online/fmig/index/medical-school/mentor.html) [all](http://medicine.uchc.edu/current/mentoring/index.html)[over](http://www.saem.org/download/Hand-9.pdf)[the place](http://career.studentaffairs.duke.edu/alumni/giveadvice/assist_from_distance/medical_mentoring.html). Googling “medical student mentors” makes that patently [obvious.](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=medical+student+mentors&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) You’ve simply singled out one that focuses on minorities. Surely you’re not under the impression that white students aren’t given access to practicing physicians while black students are, because that is borderline crazy.

Tutoring and mentoring are red herrings anyway because you’ve failed to show how these programs mean black students are evaluated differently than white students in the classroom, by institutions. I’m gonna need somebody to do that, because as a black veterinarian it goes against my experiences.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/127 "2009-06-03T13:25:42Z")

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> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> If black med students systemically had adjusted grades or were given tests different than white students, don’t you think you would have heard about this by now? How do you explain the absence of the expected outcry?
> 
> Your question is like asking whether man has mastered time travel yet. After all, we sent a man to the moon, so why not? The question itself reveals you very ignorant on how professional schools work. So it’s no wonder you think the MCAT is useful information with which to evaluate a physician.
> 
> Are engineering schools who let women in with lower SAT scores than males “coddling” them? And is it plausible to think that women are “coddled” throughout their engineering training with “lowered standards”?

So you can’t address the question without ad hominems?

And maybe women who are let in with lower SAT scores ARE coddled through the whole process.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/128 "2009-06-03T13:30:09Z")

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> [@Blake](#):
>
> Just did a quick Google search, and the [first result](http://nmanet.org/index.php?/NatProgList/info/blackbagmentoringprogram/) is
> 
> “a nation wide Black Bag Mentoring Program lead by NMA members for medical residents and students with funding from the Health Research and Services Administration. The overall purpose of this program is to develop a greater number of African American residents and students who will become leaders in clinical and academic medicine. Our program will enable residents and students to interact with practicing physicians to gain knowledge about the field of medicine, their respective specialty and attend the NMA Annual meeting.”
> 
> Does this program result in “coddling”? I have no idea, but its certainly not totally implausible to think that it could. For that matter **mswas** could argue that enabling black residents and students to interact with practicing physicians when white students have no such program is coddling all by itself.

Yes, it is. Having a different set of standards based on race is coddling. If you have more opportunities for mentoring and help, and have lower standards on the tests, that is by definition ‘coddling’.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/129 "2009-06-03T13:31:32Z")

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> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> Again, I’m getting that “are you whooshing me?” feeling. [Mentoring](http://www.acog.org/departments/dept_notice.cfm?recno=43&bulletin=3219) [programs](http://dms.dartmouth.edu/alumni/mentoring.shtml) [are](http://fmignet.aafp.org/online/fmig/index/medical-school/mentor.html) [all](http://medicine.uchc.edu/current/mentoring/index.html)[over](http://www.saem.org/download/Hand-9.pdf)[the place](http://career.studentaffairs.duke.edu/alumni/giveadvice/assist_from_distance/medical_mentoring.html). Googling “medical student mentors” makes that patently [obvious.](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=medical+student+mentors&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) You’ve simply singled out one that focuses on minorities. Surely you’re not under the impression that white students aren’t given access to practicing physicians while black students are, because that is borderline crazy.
> 
> Tutoring and mentoring are red herrings anyway because you’ve failed to show how these programs mean black students are evaluated differently than white students in the classroom, by institutions. I’m gonna need somebody to do that, because as a black veterinarian it goes against my experiences.

Well then maybe you’d be better served showing that it doesn’t actually happen that way rather than hurling insults at such concerns. **Chief Pedant** says that the lower scores occur all the way up the chain. Is he right or is he wrong?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/130 "2009-06-03T13:35:11Z")

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> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> It’s not a valid concern so long as it doesn’t result in less competent physicians.

And how do I know that it doesn’t?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/131 "2009-06-03T13:38:45Z")

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> [@mswas](#):
>
> So you can’t address the question without ad hominems?

Are you asking me to prove that lower standards _aren’t_ used to evaluate black medical students? This is called proving a negative and is a waste of time.

If you think blacks are coddled in medical school while white students are left to fend for themselves in the harsh, hard world with nary a friend or resource to guide them, show this. I don’t know by what mechanism this would take place, such practices more than likely would have gotten a lot of media attention and yet I’ve heard nothing about this, and it doesn’t jive with my own experiences in vet school (which is generally considered tougher than med school). But go on and put up something to justify your assumptions.

> [@](#):
>
> And maybe women who are let in with lower SAT scores ARE coddled through the whole process.

And maybe there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/132 "2009-06-03T13:41:25Z")

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> [@mswas](#):
>
> **Chief Pedant** says that the lower scores occur all the way up the chain. Is he right or is he wrong?

Let’s suppose he’s right. It doesn’t mean that black students are coddled in their training, so I don’t know what his assertion has to do with anything.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/133 "2009-06-03T14:01:31Z")

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> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> Are you asking me to prove that lower standards _aren’t_ used to evaluate black medical students? This is called proving a negative and is a waste of time.

Well it is possible to falsify a hypothesis like **Maeglin** has attempted calling into question the value of the psychometrics.

> [@](#):
>
> If you think blacks are coddled in medical school while white students are left to fend for themselves in the harsh, hard world with nary a friend or resource to guide them, show this. I don’t know by what mechanism this would take place, such practices more than likely would have gotten a lot of media attention and yet I’ve heard nothing about this, and it doesn’t jive with my own experiences in vet school (which is generally considered tougher than med school). But go on and put up something to justify your assumptions.

I don’t know one way or the other, and that’s the problem. How am I to know? How am I to trust that the education is the same if the standards are lower for entrance into medical school? I’m not making ANY assumptions. I am alarmed by information that has been presented and your ad hominems and appeals to emotion have done very little to allay that alarm. Don’t get me wrong, I have met some brilliant black people in my life, people whose intelligence I respect deeply. So I am sure that there are many brilliant black Doctors, and it is likely that you are a brilliant veterinarian. The problem is one of verification. If standards are lowered, how do I know how deep it goes?

The problem here isn’t whether or not black doctors are qualified, it is a matter of verification. How do _I_ verify?

> [@](#):
>
> And maybe there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll.

And maybe handwaving appeals to emotion are unpersuasive. You need to decide whether trying to fight my ignorance has any value to you, because making fun of me is something I’m pretty immune to. I like to talk trash as much as the next guy, but I don’t consider it a substitute for reasoned debate.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/134 "2009-06-03T14:07:36Z")

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> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> Let’s suppose he’s right. It doesn’t mean that black students are coddled in their training, so I don’t know what his assertion has to do with anything.

I don’t like the term “coddling” as it’s been applied in this thread, because I find it unnecessarily pejorative. Certainly all institutions of higher learning attempt to help their struggling students, and there are specific efforts that are directed toward efforts to ensure that Under-represented Minorities get any help they need.

At the risk of muddying this water further, let me clarify:

For medical (and law) licensure and certificaton, the standardized exams required for licensure and/or certification are NOT adjusted. You either pass them or you do not; if you pass you are certified, and if you don’t pass you are not. Those exams (the Bar exam and the USMLE, for instance, are the minimum level requirements. As with any other exam, its possible to barely pass them or ace them.

For admission to training schools (law and medicine, and presumably many others) the standards for entry ARE adjusted, and preferential treatment is given to URMs (Under-Represented Minorities). This is true at the college level, and equally true at the Professional school level, because the weak standardized scores of URMs at college entry do not close testing gaps four years later. So if a medical or law school wants to promote diversity, they must create a double standard for URMs and lower any standardized admission test criteria for that pool of applicants.

Four years later still, the USMLE will continue to reflect lower scores for URMs, who still have not closed the gap. In medicine, which for the most part requires yet additional Residency training to become Board Certified in a specialty, programs who seek diversity for their trainees must again create a double standard for entry into the program because the URMs will be disproportionately represented in the lower test echelons. Over-reliance on scores would effectively “discriminate” against acceptance of URMs since arbitrary score threshholds exclude lower performers.

The USMLE is usually sufficient for state licensure, however, and once its components are passed, individual state boards can use that to grant licensure for medical practice in that state. If a state requires USMLE passing scores, no double standard is used that somehow lets a URM get a license without passing the same test everyone else did.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/135 "2009-06-03T14:12:26Z")

</div>

> [@mswas](#):
>
> How do _I_ verify?

When you go to a doctor, ask to see his license. Then call the state medical licensing board and ask them to verify that he/she is qualified to practice medicine in your state.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/136 "2009-06-03T14:27:13Z")

</div>

> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> When you go to a doctor, ask to see his license. Then call the state medical licensing board and ask them to verify that he/she is qualified to practice medicine in your state.

:rolleyes:

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/137 "2009-06-03T14:35:05Z")

</div>

> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> IThe USMLE is usually sufficient for state licensure, however, and once its components are passed, individual state boards can use that to grant licensure for medical practice in that state. If a state requires USMLE passing scores, no double standard is used that somehow lets a URM get a license without passing the same test everyone else did.

And that’s the point, isn’t it?

MCAT may have some predictive value on later tests, when you look at large groups of people. But if you have two docs, both of whom passed their boards, then what does it matter what their MCAT scores were? Obviously both docs were smart enough to 1) successfully get through med school and 2) pass their board exam.

Let’s suppose we find out that Dr. Smith had a craptastic MCAT score and was only able to get into med school because he came from a prestigious undergrad, had a high undergrad GPA, and/or is Native American. All that tells me is that in his case, the MCAT was not a reliable predictor of his ability to become a doctor, since he was able to successfully master the training and pass the USMLE. If the MCAT score is the end all-be all, then the guy should have flunked out the first or second year.

Again, I ask the incredulous: why don’t employers bother with asking applicants for SAT, GRE, or MCAT scores, if they have so much meaningful predictive value?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/138 "2009-06-03T14:36:11Z")

</div>

So why is it that the MCAT is not a good predictor of his ability but the standardized licensing exams are?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/139 "2009-06-03T15:16:09Z")

</div>

> [@mswas](#):
>
> So why is it that the MCAT is not a good predictor of his ability but the standardized licensing exams are?

The MCAT is not measuring a physician’s knowledge. It’s a test that is taken before medical school, before the person even receives the training they need to distinguish a wart from a pimple. That alone makes it a weird basis for judging a physician.

Who would you most trust to know what they’re doing in the operating room? The board-certified surgeon who had the lowest MCAT score in their class? Or the 1st year medical student who had the highest.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\
**Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/140 "2009-06-03T15:29:30Z")

</div>

> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> The MCAT is not measuring a physician’s knowledge. It’s a test that is taken before medical school, before the person even receives the training they need to distinguish a wart from a pimple. That alone makes it a weird basis for judging a physician.
> 
> Who would you most trust to know what they’re doing in the operating room? The board-certified surgeon who had the lowest MCAT score in their class? Or the 1st year medical student who had the highest.

You’re being evasive here. No one is judging by the MCAT, I am wondering if it’s not indicative of a larger trend of lowering standards to meet quotas from entrance to med school on to hiring at hospitals.

I’m not going to answer your question because it’s utterly irrelevant.

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